Have you ever found a single bug in Islam?

[Sha'irullah]

Many, unscientific claims about geography, cosmology, astrology, morality, theology and history.
The issue though is that some are fundamentals in the faith

 

[Penumbra]

Please raise your points and show examples which made you to build such a bad opinion about Islam.

The whole thing, basically. The presentation of it did absolutely nothing positive for me.

The religion appears to be about basically blind obedience, total submission of thought and action to what I consider to be a very man-made idea. It's so elementary, like "believe this, and do these things, and go to paradise" and "fail to believe this, and do these things, and be tortured forever". The Qur'an comes off as very tribalistic, the way it talks about unbelievers as though they are some unified block of people that have bad traits rather than what they actually are- the rest of the diverse world. I simply have no reason to believe that a religion like Islam is true, and view it as a very harmful religion, created by men.

And for Islam in practice, most Islamic countries get internationally ranked among the lowest countries for gender equality (relating to economic participation, political influence, education, health), and many of them have laws against homosexuality with punishments ranging from imprisonment up to death. Most of the extremely sexist things I've seen written on this forum were by Muslims from the Middle East. Some other Muslims here have been better about that, but the worst statements I've seen have been from religious Muslims, and their statements are basically just supporting the Qur'an.

The Qur'an has a verse for beating wives although people debate about the translation, and talks about women getting half inheritance, and women counting as half an eye witness compared to a man. One of the Hadiths says that most of the people in hell are women (especially women that are ungrateful), and another Hadith also says that women count as half an eye witness due to deficiency of mind.

And the amount of detailed violent and sadistic threats of hell for unbelievers where it talks excitedly about the tortures just pushes the whole thing into really unethical territory. And so much tribalism, just literally all over the place. I mean, just a few samples:

002.121Those to whom We have given the Book recite it with its true recital. They [are the ones who] believe in it. And whoever disbelieves in it - it is they who are the losers.

004.056 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise.

005:051 O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as friends/allies. They are [in fact] friends/allies of one another. And whoever is a friend/ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

009.073 O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.
009.074 They swear by Allah that they did not say [anything against the Prophet] while they had said the word of disbelief and disbelieved after their [pretense of] Islam and planned that which they were not to attain. And they were not resentful except [for the fact] that Allah and His Messenger had enriched them of His bounty. So if they repent, it is better for them; but if they turn away, Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter. And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper.

022.018 Seest thou not that to God bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as God shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for God carries out all that He wills.
022.019 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
022.020 With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
022.021 In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
022.022 Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"

033.064 Verily, Allah has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire (Hell).
033.065 Wherein they will abide for ever, and they will find neither a Wali (a protector) nor a helper.
033.066 On the Day when their faces will be turned over in the Fire, they will say: "Oh, would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger (Muhammad)."
033.067 And they will say: "Our Lord! Verily, we obeyed our chiefs and our great ones, and they misled us from the (Right) Way.
033.068 Our Lord! give them double torment and curse them with a mighty curse!"

040.070 Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which We sent our apostles: but soon shall they know,-
040.071 When the yokes (shall be) round their necks, and the chains; they shall be dragged along-
040.072 In the boiling fetid fluid: then in the Fire shall they be burned;
040.073 Then shall it be said to them: "Where are the (deities) to which ye gave part- worship-
040.074 "In derogation of God?" They will reply: "They have left us in the lurch: Nay, we invoked not, of old, anything (that had real existence)." Thus does God leave the Unbelievers to stray.
040.075 "That was because ye were wont to rejoice on the earth in things other than the Truth, and that ye were wont to be insolent.
040.076 "Enter ye the gates of Hell, to dwell therein: and evil is (this) abode of the arrogant!"

054.046 Nay, but the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense), and the Hour will be more grievous and more bitter.054.047 Verily, the Mujrimun (polytheists, disbelievers, sinners, criminals, etc.) are in error (in this world) and will burn (in the Hell-fire in the Hereafter).
054.048 The Day they will be dragged in the Fire on their faces (it will be said to them): "Taste you the touch of Hell!"

Violent threats pop up in hundreds of verses throughout the book, sometimes for unbelievers and sometimes for people that do bad things. Such detail too- burning skins being replaced for more agony, beating with maces, boiling water, scalding molten brass, chains, yokes around the necks, dragged on faces.

Really, really barbaric stuff, man.

 

[Truthisnotyourenemy]

It is silly for you only because you don't know how it works.

Very funny.
Yes can communicate via basic sounds, but they don't talk like humans as the Koran quotes them:


027.018
YUSUFALI: At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

The point I made was that an ant managed to recognize Solomon and his army as they approached!
And it seems the other ants were aware of who he was.

Which is obviously ridiculous. I once asked a Muslim how can an ant recognise a human approaching it from a distance. He responded by saying Solomon was famous!!

 

[Ingledsva]

I don't think it is too hard to investigate that based on history, when we compare the Arab civilization, we see within a few centuries after Islam, significant improvement in terms of sciences and civilization. I am not talking about our time, I am talking about up to 500 years after Islam.
Before Islam, those Arab Tribes were very primitive and wild. The Laws and teachings of Islam were significantly better and more advance for them. The key to see this is 'relativity'. It means, when you give something to a people which is 'relatively' better than what they currently practice, it causes them to advance. It doesn't mean that Sharia of Islam is better than what currently is practiced in America or Europe. In fact I would say IMO if the Sharia Law was to be practiced now in USA or other countries, it would cause degradation and problems. Those Islam Laws were formulated to treat certain conditions related to the time of the people who lived 1000 years ago. It is like a medicine that was given to a sick person. When that person sickness is treated and the health condition is changed, continuing that medicine does not do well anymore, but can even cause disease. That is how religious laws are formulated. They are relative to the condition of the people of the time they are revealed to. This point can be shown even from the verses of Quran. It never claims that it is a Book of Law to be followed forever. In fact it even gives a period of 1000 years. Just as a Doctor that prescribes a medicine and determines for how long it is to be taken. In same way, the All-knowing physician declared 1000 years as the period of Islam.

The horrors of Sharia Law are from man - not God!



*

 

[FearGod]

Interesting, how is it relevant?

Are you claiming that Mohammed trained the ants like the whale poop sniffing dogs are trained?

No it isn't a matter of training,but it is the amazing creation of God.

Do you think that you can sniff the same as dogs if you are well trained ?

Wait, are you claiming that people back then were so stupid they could not tell that insects communicate with each other?

One wonders why so many Muslims are impressed by making their ancestors stupid in order to promote their beliefs...

Ignorance is different than stupidity and i think it is stupid to think that ignorance means stupid.

It was believed that ants were communicating by touching their antennas and not by producing sounds and only in the year 2009 it was discovered that ants speak by sound.

Old belief
Ants communicate (talk to each other) by touching each other with their antennae
Reference: Ants

Recent belief

[youtube]AkZ56u3ZUk8[/youtube]
What Ants Are Saying - YouTube

 

[FearGod]

Excuse me, but all six schools (four Sunni, two Shi'a) of jurisprudence agree with my statement. If a woman converts to Islam, and her husband does not, the marriage contract is void. The exact details of what occurs then vary based on which school of jurisprudence is being discussed, but most scholars state that she is to be separated from her husband immediately, she is not to have conjugal relations with him, and if he does not convert to Islam within the 'Iddah, she is free to marry again. This applies both within the Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-Harb.

There are some scholars who state that if she is content to wait on the possibility of his conversion, she is not required to divorce him at the end of the 'Iddah, but that is a minority opinion.

The opinion you express above, by being so very incomplete, reflects either ignorance of the requirements, or a desire to hide by dishonest intent what the requirements are. I advise you to discuss with your teachers what those requirements actually are. Indeed, if you will advise me of which sect (Sunni or Shi'a) you follow, I will post the relevant hadith and fatwas on the issue.

I ain't that kind of person to believe in stupid fatwas.

Some scholars say disbelievers should be killed,does that mean that they are correct.
If the scholar is an evil person and interpret the verses for his own evil purposes,should we then listen to his fatwas.

I am not inventing from my own mind but the verse is very clear talking about immigrants women except if you want to pretend of not seeing that word.

O you who have believed, when the believing women come to you as emigrants

I ain't telling you that for you to believe,but i only inform you what i know and i don't care of what you want to believe.

If my wife had chosen to convert, my first action would have been to remove anything harram from the house, to set her aside a room for prayers, and to familiarize myself with the laws of halal and harram so as to never cause offense to her faith.

Good guy.

 

[technomage]

I ain't that kind of person to believe in stupid fatwas.

Does that mean that you disregard all fatwas as stupid, or that you decide which ones are stupid and which ones are not?

 

[FearGod]

Does that mean that you disregard all fatwas as stupid, or that you decide which ones are stupid and which ones are not?

I use my mind.

For example some scholars say music is harram and their evidence for that is one hadith while the quran never mentioned it,so how it is harram and neglected by the quran.

I listen to music and i don't believe it to be harram.

 

[technomage]

I use my mind.

For example some scholars say music is harram and their evidence for that is one hadith while the quran never mentioned it,so how it is harram and neglected by the quran.

I listen to music and i don't believe it to be harram.

I can agree with this. While I have no knowledge of any God, I am firmly persuaded that if God exists, He gave us our minds to use--to think, to evaluate, and to choose wisely to the best of our ability.

 

[FearGod]

Very funny.
Yes can communicate via basic sounds, but they don't talk like humans as the Koran quotes them:


027.018
YUSUFALI: At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."

The point I made was that an ant managed to recognize Solomon and his army as they approached!
And it seems the other ants were aware of who he was.

Which is obviously ridiculous. I once asked a Muslim how can an ant recognise a human approaching it from a distance. He responded by saying Solomon was famous!!

No,not because he was famous,but just have a look to the verse before it

And gathered for Solomon were his soldiers of the jinn and men and birds, and they were [marching] in rows.(27:17)

Jinn is known to have the ability of shapeshifting by the power of possessing any physical body,be it human or insect.

Until, when they came upon the valley of the ants, an ant said, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not." (27:18)

Study shows that ants talk with each other,so i think your point here is that the quran should say that the ant said "zeezooozeezazezazee"

 

[McBell]

Ignorance is different than stupidity and i think it is stupid to think that ignorance means stupid.

It was believed that ants were communicating by touching their antennas and not by producing sounds and only in the year 2009 it was discovered that ants speak by sound.

Old belief
Ants communicate (talk to each other) by touching each other with their antennae
Reference: Ants

You are ignoring the fact that it was already known that ants communicated amoungst themselves...

You are merely nit picking the way they communicate with out addressing how they were understood by Solomon.

 

[shawn001]

No it isn't a matter of training,but it is the amazing creation of God.

Do you think that you can sniff the same as dogs if you are well trained ?



Ignorance is different than stupidity and i think it is stupid to think that ignorance means stupid.

It was believed that ants were communicating by touching their antennas and not by producing sounds and only in the year 2009 it was discovered that ants speak by sound.

Old belief
Ants communicate (talk to each other) by touching each other with their antennae
Reference: Ants

Recent belief

[youtube]AkZ56u3ZUk8[/youtube]
What Ants Are Saying - YouTube

Ants mainly communicate by chemical signalling for the most part.



Skip the Ants, though, I am wondering how Adam and Eve were 90 feet tall, twice as tall as T-REX?

 

[FearGod]

Ants mainly communicate by chemical signalling for the most part.



Skip the Ants, though, I am wondering how Adam and Eve were 90 feet tall, twice as tall as T-REX?

The quran didn't mention that humans were made giants in ancient times.

 

[Truthisnotyourenemy]

No,not because he was famous,but just have a look to the verse before it

And gathered for Solomon were his soldiers of the jinn and men and birds, and they were [marching] in rows.(27:17)

Jinn is known to have the ability of shapeshifting by the power of possessing any physical body,be it human or insect.

Until, when they came upon the valley of the ants, an ant said, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not." (27:18)

Study shows that ants talk with each other,so i think your point here is that the quran should say that the ant said "zeezooozeezazezazee"

The claim an ant recognised Solomon is just absurd.
Ants don't talk like humans as the Koran quotes, they have simple noises for basic commands, they don't have a unique sound for Solomons' name!!?
To claim such nonsense as a miracle is just embarrassing.

 

[technomage]

The quran didn't mention that humans were made giants in ancient times.

The Hadith does, stating that the Prophet directly said this thing: "The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall." Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543. There are three other references in the Hadith as well.

 

[Pastek]

The Hadith does, stating that the Prophet directly said this thing: "The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall." Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543. There are three other references in the Hadith as well.

I think FearGod is a Quranist as he posted in this section many times in the Islamic DIR.

 

[technomage]

I think FearGod is a Quranist as he posted in this section many times in the Islamic DIR.

Quranist = only accepts the Quran, while rejecting Hadith?

If that is the case, then thank you for the clarification. I am new to the forum, and had not seen FearGod's statements to that effect.

 

[FearGod]

The claim an ant recognised Solomon is just absurd.
Ants don't talk like humans as the Koran quotes, they have simple noises for basic commands, they don't have a unique sound for Solomons' name!!?
To claim such nonsense as a miracle is just embarrassing.

It is noise to you but to the ants it has a meaning.

How the ants learned those words of commands ?

We can never know that the ants produce any sound if we don't have the sensitive microphones,so people in the 7th century should be more surprised than you to believe that the ants can talk or produce any kind of sound and even the prophet will find it hard to be believed but he is only a messenger,he has to pass the message as he received it.

 

[Pastek]

Quranist = only accepts the Quran, while rejecting Hadith?

If that is the case, then thank you for the clarification. I am new to the forum, and had not seen FearGod's statements to that effect.

I can't say they reject them all but i think they reject many of them.
They have a section in the Islamic DIR.

 

[gnostic]

No,not because he was famous,but just have a look to the verse before it

And gathered for Solomon were his soldiers of the jinn and men and birds, and they were [marching] in rows.(27:17)

Jinn is known to have the ability of shapeshifting by the power of possessing any physical body,be it human or insect.

Until, when they came upon the valley of the ants, an ant said, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not." (27:18)

Study shows that ants talk with each other,so i think your point here is that the quran should say that the ant said "zeezooozeezazezazee"

Oh, come'on, FearGod. :tsk:

You expect us to believe in a shapeshifting, smoke-made jinns to be more believable than talking birds or insects?

Can you even prove that jinns exist?

:sorry1: Sorry, man. But jinns is even more far-fetched than humans and animals can communicate like you and I can.

The Muslims' belief in the jinns, is the by-product in pre-Islamic Arabic superstitions and fables. That's the origin of the jinns, from pre-Isalmic fairytales, no more believable than elves, ghouls and goblins.

I have seen no evidences of jinns, except in make-believe stories and fairytales, of which is found in the Qur'an.

I wouldn't dream of saying what you can or cannot believe, but if you are going to say that these ants were actually jinns in ant-form as valid answer to truthisnotyourenemy, then you really shouldn't be surprised when he scoff at your claim.

As to your quote in 27:17, the verse is distinguishing them as jinns, humans and birds; it doesn't say the humans and birds were jinns that have taken on their forms.

So your claims that these humans and birds are really jinns - you are reaching - you're trying to change the original context of the verse.

Likewise, the verse about the Solomon and the ants, doesn't say the ants were really jinns, so you're trying to manipulate the verse to say differently.

And ants may be able to talk to one another, but I doubt very much they could understand the speech of men, or I doubt very much that people could possibly understand what the ants were saying.

We know that birds can mimic the sounds and words of men, but they really have no idea what they are saying.