He is Risen - The Evidence

[John1.12]

No, if there's a God, then as far as I can tell we owe each other nothing,

But IF there was an authentic resurrection, and IF there's a God, and IF [he]'s benevolent and IF [he]'s omnipotent

then WHAT what exactly was Jesus trying to achieve

AND

why could God not achieve it by other means and in particular without bloodshed

AND

why isn't human sacrifice of its own nature wholly unacceptable, a moral abomination?

Human sacrifice? ,a moral abomination ?
Is it an abomination to Jump on a hand grenade, smother it with your own body ,to save those around you? It rarely happens that people sacrifice for those he Or she knows , but it happens .Even for those he doesn't know . I don't know of many accounts of someone sacrificing them selves for their enemies / worst people you could imagine, the ones who despise you ? But would anyone say this was a ' abomination ' ?

 

[John1.12]

Human sacrifice? ,a moral abomination ?
Is it an abomination to Jump on a hand grenade, smother it with your own body ,to save those around you? It rarely happens that people sacrifice for those he Or she knows , but it happens .Even for those he doesn't know . I don't know of many accounts of someone sacrificing them selves for their enemies / worst people you could imagine, the ones who despise you ? But would anyone say this was a ' abomination ' ?

//why could God not achieve it by other means and in particular without bloodshed// This question is answered by a verse which says " without the shedding of blood there's no forgiveness of sins " . It seems as if that literally there can be no redemption without the atonement . Once sin enters into the picture the resolution for this predicament seems to be only solved by one solution. Maybe in the same way that God cannot lie , cannot be unjust , unrighteous, be arbitrary, be contradictory, ect .

 

[sayak83]

//why could God not achieve it by other means and in particular without bloodshed// This question is answered by a verse which says " without the shedding of blood there's no forgiveness of sins " . It seems as if that literally there can be no redemption without the atonement . Once sin enters into the picture the resolution for this predicament seems to be only solved by one solution. Maybe in the same way that God cannot lie , cannot be unjust , unrighteous, be arbitrary, be contradictory, ect .

Can you justify this claim with logic, that is apart from "my God says this arbitrary thing in my book, so it must be true"?

 

[John1.12]

Can you justify this claim with logic, that is apart from "my God says this arbitrary thing in my book, so it must be true"?

We can't have logic without God .

 

[blü 2]

Human sacrifice? ,a moral abomination ?
Is it an abomination to Jump on a hand grenade, smother it with your own body ,to save those around you?

Some people will jump on hand grenades as an instinctive reaction in a crisis. Men are likewise inclined to place themselves between a threat and their partner.

Jesus however didn't jump on a hand grenade.

He set out to go to the place where the hand grenades are, made sure one was meant for him, and refusing all chances to escape, got it to explode and kill him.

Why?

And you didn't tell me why an omnipotent benevolent God would choose such a vile expedient.

Or are you cool with human sacrifice?

Why was it necessary? Whatever it was [he] wished to achieve, why was there no bloodless alternative?

 

[John1.12]

Some people will jump on hand grenades as an instinctive reaction in a crisis. Men are likewise inclined to place themselves between a threat and their partner.

Jesus however didn't jump on a hand grenade.

He set out to go to the place where the hand grenades are, made sure one was meant for him, and refusing all chances to escape, got it to explode and kill him.

Why?

And you didn't tell me why an omnipotent benevolent God would choose such a vile expedient.

Why was it necessary? Whatever it was [he] wished to achieve, why was there no bloodless alternative?

I've no idea where your coming from when you say 'omnipotent benevolent' ? Which verses are you thinking of ?

 

[blü 2]

I've no idea where your coming from when you say 'omnipotent benevolent' ? Which verses are you thinking of ?

Do you think there's a real God?

If so ─

Do you think that this God is benevolent?

Do you think that this God is omnipotent?

And are you cool with human sacrifice?

 

[John1.12]

Some people will jump on hand grenades as an instinctive reaction in a crisis. Men are likewise inclined to place themselves between a threat and their partner.

Jesus however didn't jump on a hand grenade.

He set out to go to the place where the hand grenades are, made sure one was meant for him, and refusing all chances to escape, got it to explode and kill him.

Why?

And you didn't tell me why an omnipotent benevolent God would choose such a vile expedient.

Or are you cool with human sacrifice?

Why was it necessary? Whatever it was [he] wished to achieve, why was there no bloodless alternative?

My point was about such an act would never be considered an abomination. ,like you said . Jesus offered himself. Yes he prayed in his humanity if there was another way ..the answer was ,there was no other way . That was the will of the Father.

 

[John1.12]

Do you think there's a real God?

If so ─

Do you think that this God is benevolent?

Do you think that this God is omnipotent?

And are you cool with human sacrifice?

I try approach the bible from scripture, not over arching terms . I'm overwhelmed that Jesus did what he did for us . So yes I'm cool with that . Much more being saved now I have heaven to come . I'm ecstatic about what Jesus did . Its the most wonderful news I could think of .I wouldn't be as excited if the resurrection never happened though .

 

[John1.12]

Do you think there's a real God?

If so ─

Do you think that this God is benevolent?

Do you think that this God is omnipotent?

And are you cool with human sacrifice?

Yes I believe the God of the bible is a living God . Jesus lives right now .

 

[blü 2]

Yes I believe the God of the bible is a living God . Jesus lives right now .

And a benevolent God?

And an omnipotent God?

And you're cool with human sacrifice?

And you have no idea why it was necessary for Jesus to die?

 

[John1.12]

And a benevolent God?

And an omnipotent God?

And you're cool with human sacrifice?

And you have no idea why it was necessary for Jesus to die?

I've answered all of them . It was necessary For Jesus to Die ,to atone for the sins of the world and that for all those that receive him ( John 1.12 ) will be able to live with God for eternity in heaven. I don't know how its possible to live for eternity ,other than I believe so from the scriptures. The same way I trust that Jesus Death , Burial and resurrection was the ONLY way . I believe Jesus is the ONLY way man can recieve salvation. That ALL other paths/ religions are the wrong way and do not lead to God at all . I believe this is the same way . That its not possible to be saved another way . That it is necessary that Jesus is the ONLY way .

 

[blü 2]

I've answered all of them . It was necessary For Jesus to Die ,to atone for the sins of the world

But what's the connection between his death and such atoning that occurred ─ given that any did? How did it work to atone for anything?

Please spell it out clearly for me. I completely fail to understand.

That its not possible to be saved another way . That it is necessary that Jesus is the ONLY way .

Same question again ─ WHY was it necessary that Jesus die to attain that end?

This is where the questions about benevolence and omnipotence come in, which you haven't addressed.

Is God unable to do anything except according to someone else's rules?

Or doesn't [he] give a dang. but is just fond of a good crucifixion?

And you're strangely silent on the question of whether you're personally cool with crucifying people or not. Is there some reason you don't want to state your position on the question? Is there a conflict between your beliefs and your actual instinct that human sacrifice is indeed a moral abomination?

 

[John1.12]

But what's the connection between his death and such atoning that occurred ─ given that any did? How did it work to atone for anything?

Please spell it out clearly for me. I completely fail to understand.
Same question again ─ WHY was it necessary that Jesus die to attain that end?

This is where the questions about benevolence and omnipotence come in, which you haven't addressed.

Is God unable to do anything except according to someone else's rules?

Or doesn't [he] give a dang. but is just fond of a good crucifixion?

And you're strangely silent on the question of whether you're personally cool with crucifying people or not. Is there some reason you don't want to state your position on the question? Is there a conflict between your beliefs and your actual instinct that human sacrifice is indeed a moral abomination?

//Is God unable to do anything except according to someone else's rules?// No . Its by his own ' rules ' .

 

[sayak83]

We can't have logic without God .

True, but maybe not the God you believe in?

 

[John1.12]

True, but maybe not the God you believe in?

Who or what is your god/ gods?

 

[sayak83]

Who or what is your god/ gods?

See the About section
https://www.religiousforums.com/members/sayak83.37415/

I believe that there is a singular root entity that is the substantial essence of everything, actualizing all physical phenomena that exists as well as all logical and mathematical structures that give physicality form. I believe evolution has granted human mind a limited cognitive ability to perceive this essential reality at a subconscious level (for most) through which we gain the ability to make creative connections and also gain our enhanced sense of meaning making and self awareness. Spiritual practices can bring this cognitive awareness to the level of conscious apprehension, though incompletely. We Hindus call this entity Brahman, but it may also be perceived as a personal entity, in which case it is called God.

I have had certain meditative experiences that indicate the above description is true. Which is the reason that I believe, along with the fact that the intuitions about ethics and reality I had gained from them had stood me in excellent stead both in my personal development and as a scientist.

 

[nPeace]

But the leaf shapes did evolve from each other. We have fossil evidence for this. So your leaf figure is actually an evidence of evolution of leaves.
Evolution and Development of Leaf Shape | Accumulating Glitches | Learn Science at Scitable
I cannot see how anybody on earth can believe that the OP you wrote can be construed as evidence for resurrection. But to each his own I guess.

Exactly my point.

 

[sayak83]

Exactly my point.

Then why even bother posting this OP. Clearly what you consider convincing is not remotely so for anybody who is already not a believer?

 

[John1.12]

See the About section
https://www.religiousforums.com/members/sayak83.37415/

//I have had certain meditative experiences that indicate the above description is true. Which is the reason that I believe// And your challenging me on logic ?