I'm saying that the whole story is rotten. There are problems and holes all the way through the account of Jesus's life, from birth to death and beyond.
It's contesting your argument.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
He is Risen - The Evidence
- Thread starter nPeace
- Start date
nPeace
Veteran Member
You are certainly entitled to that opinion.
What argument are you talking about? I presented facts. Unless you are referring to the part about unreasonable and irrational arguments critics make.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
I know.
I quoted the claim you made that I was responding to.
But if you want to make it specific to Jesus's death and resurrection, let's look at this passage about what supposedly happened when Jesus died:
Matt 27:51-53:
51 Just then[cj] the temple curtain[ck] was torn in two, from top to bottom. The[cl] earth shook and the rocks were split apart. 52 And tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died[cm] were raised. 53 (They[cn] came out of the tombs after his resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.)
Do you have any source besides the Bible that describes these events happening? If "many" dead people "came out of the tombs [...] and appeared to many people," we would expect people to take notice of it, no?
Especially since this seems like the sort of thing that, if Jesus's resurrection were real, Jesus's opponents would use these events against him: Jesus's resurrection sure seems less special if all sorts of dead people are coming back to life right around the same time.
We don't even have reliable evidence that the disciples claimed to see Jesus. The authors of the scriptures were unknown men with an agenda. They wrote what promoted their agenda. Subsequent copyists further edited and embellished the stories.
And then there's the fact that miracles, resurrections and sightings of the dead are common stories in lots of religious mythology. Its hardly unique to Christianity. How can they all be right?
Last edited:
nPeace
Veteran Member
I don't disagree with you here, since that account is not describing resurrections, there is no reason to get excited about it.
It speaks to the credibility of the story overall.
If the details of the zombie invasion of Jerusalem are a fabrication, why would we trust the rest of the story (e.g. the claims about Jesus being resurrected)?
nPeace
Veteran Member
Fabrication? What are you talking about? An earthquake can spill bodies from their burial place. It's not fabricated. It's a fact. No resurrections occurred then.
Last edited:
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Yes, but an earthquake can't made dead bodies rise up and walk into Jerusalem. Get real.
And maybe without all the green ink.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Persons are making the claim that there is no evidence for Jesus' resurrection.
In this thread, I will show that claim is false, and that it is both irrational, amd unreasonable, to demand particular expectations be met.
The following is looking at the facts reasonably.
First, it is important to mention the false claims...
The Christ myth theory, also known as the Jesus myth theory, Jesus mythicism, or the Jesus ahistoricity theory, is described by Bart Ehrman paraphrasing Earl Doherty, as the position that "..the historical Jesus did not exist. Or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity." It includes the view that the story of Jesus is largely mythological, and has little basis in historical fact. It is a fringe theory, supported by few tenured or emeritus specialists in biblical criticism or cognate disciplines. It is criticised for its outdated reliance on comparisons between mythologies and deviates from the mainstream historical view.
There are three strands of mythicism, including the view that there may have been a historical Jesus, who lived in a dimly remembered past, and was fused with the mythological Christ of Paul. A second stance is that there was never a historical Jesus, only a mythological character, later historicized in the Gospels. A third view is that no conclusion can be made about a historical Jesus, and if there was one, nothing can be known about him.
This sound very similar to what critics say about most of the characters and events in the Bible.
They claim myths, based on what...
Most Christ mythicists follow a threefold argument: they question the reliability of the Pauline epistles and the Gospels to establish the historicity of Jesus; they note the lack of information on Jesus in non-Christian sources from the first and early second centuries; and they argue that early Christianity had syncretistic and mythological origins, as reflected in both the Pauline epistles and the gospels, with Jesus being a celestial being who was concretized in the Gospels. Therefore, Christianity was not founded on the shared memories of a man, but rather a shared mytheme.
Jesus - The man
What we know : The Facts
The Bible centuries ago, before modern acceptance, stated factually, that a Jewish man called Jesus the Christ / Messiah walked the earth; had followers; was put to death by the Romans.
It was not until recent, that critics of the Bible, finally conceded that there was indeed a man called Jesus Christ, who had followers, and was put to death by the Romans.
Virtually all scholars support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed. Among these scholars was G. A. Wells, a well-known mythicist who changed his mind and ultimately believed in a minimal historical Jesus.
Most scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed. Historian Michael Grant asserts that if conventional standards of historical textual criticism are applied to the New Testament, "we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned."
In other words, Michael is actually calling out the hypocrites.
The Bible had also stated how Jesus, was put to death, and that was also recently accepted by Bible critics.
Based on both Biblical, and extra-Biblical sources, the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.
The lesson that should have been learned...
The Bible was telling the truth... again, even though it was not believed by critics.
The resurrection - Evidence
Past
What we know : The Facts
It was the followers of Jesus who claimed that Jesus was risen.
The Bible says Jesus appeared - not to the Romans; not to the Jewish leaders, who wanted him dead, and would certainly have been happy to kill him a second time- but to his faithful followers.
Why did Jesus show himself only to his followers, and not the world? He wanted them to know that he was alive, as he promised he would be.
How did he go, undetected? Surely, if he was risen, people would know, and it would be widely reported. It would make "headline news".
No. Here is why...
(John 20:14-20) 14 After saying this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.Luke 24:13-43 ; John 21:1-815 Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, thinking it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her: “Mary!” On turning around, she said to him in Hebrew: “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher!”) 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene came and brought the news to the disciples: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them what he had said to her. 19 When it was late that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them: “May you have peace.” 20 After saying this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced at seeing the Lord.
The Bible shows without any doubt, Jesus could not be recognized in person. Even his own relatives, and close associates, did not recognize him.
This is because Jesus was not raised in (with) a physically body, and he did not manifest in the same body he was put to death with.
So people passing Jesus, would not have been
This is a simple fact made in the Bible. Only Jesus follower had clear proof of Jesus' resurrection.
So only Jesus' followers were in a position to record that fact. No one else knew.
What lesson should people have learned, that keeps repeating itself?
What the Bible says, is true, but people keep denying it until they have no choice but to concede, when it is proven.
Present
What we know : The Facts
The Bible says... (Matthew 9:35-38) 35 And Jesus set out on a tour of all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the good news of the Kingdom and curing every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity. 36 On seeing the crowds, he felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. 38 Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.”
(Luke 4:43) But he said to them: “I must also declare the good news of the Kingdom of God to other cities, because for this I was sent.”
Jesus preached about the kingdom of God, to the cities and villages.
Jesus' followers did the same. Jesus promised to be with his followers in this work, which they were to carry on. Matthew 24:14 ; Matthew 28:18-20
Today, millions of Christian followers of Jesus, are preaching the same message - the kingdom of God, in the same manner that Jesus did, throughout the entire globe, and amazing growth is seen as more disciples are added.
What is the evidence Jesus is with them?
In 33 CE, the evidence was seen in 1) the holy spirit empowering Jesus followers, and 2) the growth in the disciples, and their activity.
Today, the same is seen among his faithful followers.
While it is expected that there will be imitators, and counterfeits, this does not render the evidence void, just as fraud in science does not render the other evidence void.
This is reasonable, is it not?
Unreasonable demands and irrational expectations
Based on the above, it is unreasonable to demand that Jesus should have left any trace outside what we have - the testimony of those who witnessed Jesus alive after his murder.
It is irrational to expect that Jesus should somehow appear to unbelievers to prove to them that he live, and perhaps beg them to accept that fact.
The Bible says... (1 Corinthians 2:8-10) 8 It is this wisdom that none of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known it, they would not have executed the glorious Lord. 9 But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” 10 For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God.
In other words, God does not care that the opponents of the Bible, do not believe. He cares only that those who know him, or want to know him, based on the available evidence, are blessed with more - knowledge, wisdom, and understanding.
Why?
The Bible says... (1 Corinthians 2:14) But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.
To the proud person, the things of God are foolishness.
Imagine that you had some pearls of very high value, and you wanted to share them with everyone.
However, some people don't see the value in them. They take them and just throw them away, or pound them to dust, to make some kind of recreational drug. Would you give those people your pearls?
That would be like giving food to people who take it and bury it in the earth. Matthew 7:6
If you could predict what a person would do, you would be selective in whom you give good things to.
This is the way God deals. Because God knows the heart of man, he is selective in who receives truth.
That's reasonable, isn't it?
What other evidence for the resurrection of Jesus would there be?
First you have to prove that the Bible historically absolutely reliable to believe what it says, only then your thesis can be taken seriously.
If there was an historical Jesus and if he was executed by the Romans such that the life-supporting functions of his body irreversibly ceased, then the fact of history would be that he was dead.
By definition.
The rest, as I said, are matters of faith, since there's nothing else they can be ─ nothing raises any suspicion that they might be facts of history. The supernatural is not known to exist other than as concepts / things imagined in individual brains; and even if that could somehow be overcome, there isn't even one purported eyewitness account of the event. And ...
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Interesting how a compendium of writing which, when tested “fails again and again”, remains one of the most widely read, most influential, inspirational, controversial achievements in world literature. Why do you think this is?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It is strange mixture of some good theology and some controlling, and not very good theology. Sooner or later somebody was bound to come up with a winning combination. There is noting to amazing about that.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
It’s certainly a strange mixture.
It took over 1000 years to come up with this particular winning formula. Another two millennia interpreting, translating, quoting, praying, meditating and arguing over it.
Huge chunks of the Bible still find their way into every aspect of music, literature and art; The Sun Also Rises, Your Love is Sweeter Than Wine, To Everything There is a Season, By The Rivers of Babylon..,
It’s influence shows no sign of waining. I’d say there’s plenty which is amazing about that.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
True. Nobody at this tomb from Friday evening until Sunday morning........ enough.
Few people are demanding anything. They've mostly just binned the claims....gone another way.
OMG! You've hardly got going with your 'facts' and you want to redirect away from your quest.... to prove the resurrection. Just get to your facts, eh?
Excuse me......... you were going to prove the resurrection, can we get there?
[QUOTE}
Most scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed. [/QUOTE]
I know that Jesus existed! I've studied him for years!
Can we get to the proof of resurrection?
........ proof of resurrection..... please!
Junk.evidence........ The very fact that Jesus saw his mates again proves that he never died.
And neither Luke nor John were there!
You quoted John, and it's easy to prove that he was not John the disciple and was never there.
It goes on......... your idea of proof would need the Inquisition and a solid torture chamber to produce results. Which of course they had, back then.
Last edited:
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Why do you think that there would be an instant change? People want to make believe and the Bible has quite a bit of inertia behind its beliefs. It does not mean that it is true.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Giving thought to what you said here. You caught me napping earlier.
Why would a mass resurrection be any more significant to the miracles Jesus is reported to have performed?
Didn't the same people that wanted Jesus dead, claim that these works were Devil works, and didn't some think Jesus was a magician, i.e. a trickster?
Wouldn't these be waved away as nonsense, in the same way you do?
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
It wouldn’t have sustained, as a literary phenomenon, for all this time, if it didn’t have depth and substance.
Why do you think people still read and perform plays by Shakespeare? And quote him? Why do we still read Homer, and Ovid and Virgil? And Milton and Shelley and mad beautiful autodidactic visionary William Blake. Because, I would suggest, their writing contains precious gems of both truth and beauty. Not necessarily literal truths, but abiding truths nonetheless.
Truth and beauty being, to heretical mystic John Keats, utterly synonymous. Keats never turned his nose up at the KJV, and neither did his friend and rival Percy Shelley, even after being expelled from Oxford for writing a treatise on atheism. Nor, incidentally, did Hunter S Thompson, a champion of the KJV who is unlikely to have ever darkened many church doors.