He is Risen - The Evidence

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh good. Done. Easy.
No. Actually, that's like saying prove that you went to the bathroom exactly one million times during your lifetime.
In other words, provide proof that every single account in the Bible can be verified by us.
We call those strawman arguments.

The Bible isn't automatically trustworthy. If you want to use it as the foundation of your argument, you'll need to establish that it really is trustworthy first.

Until then, the Bible is just a collection of claims, and establishing that any of those claims are true would need evidence from elsewhere.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Maybe you didn't read the post? No resurrection occured then.

You're absolutely right. No resurrection occurred. Including Jesus.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I presented facts.

I strongly suggest you look up the definition of "facts", nPeace. You're confusing it with "opinion."

 

[nPeace]

No. Its called "prove the book is valid source of history".

Going to the bathroom a million times is irrelevant.

No it's a strawman, and the only one that have to prove anything to a skeptic - non-believer - opposer of the Bible - critic of the Bible etc., is God.
Christians only need to prove to themselves.
Both of the above has been done.

Yelling in the ears of the deaf, is not required. Matthew 13:10-16

 

[nPeace]

This post is supposed to be convincing?? This reads more like an exercise to convince the ingroup of their righteousness than anything else. I wonder why such an exercise at self justification is needed?
If God does not care about those who do not believe in the resurrection, we do not care about it either. The idea of a secret resurrection in a completely different body so that only those select who really believed could sense it, and that too only for a brief few days before ascension to heavens is supposed to be convincing? If you wish to believe this personally on faith and personal experience, fine. But don't say there is any sort of convincing public evidence here , as that will be patently false.

I don't think one can be blamed if people choose not to see.
The evidence was presented. You don't have to believe it. You get to choose.

 

[nPeace]

Do you know the meaning of independent?

The biblical gospels confirming themselves most definitely isn't it.

Please provide links to some of these independent sources you claim, they were not in the OP and skirted around in passing in your reply here.


Yes the crucifixion of whi you see as worthy of your faith and i see as a terrorist seems to have occurred. As to "he is risen" not so much

Repeating one more time. The independent evidence is in the OP - evidence past, and present.
If you and your family witnesses a car accident, and James and Jane living blocks away witnessed the same accident, through their binoculars, or whatever, are those not independent sources?
Should we dismiss those as not being independent evidence?

 

[ChristineM]

Repeating one more time. The independent evidence is in the OP - evidence past, and present.
If you and your family witnesses a car accident, and James and Jane living blocks away witnessed the same accident, through their binoculars, or whatever, are those not independent sources?
Should we dismiss those as not being independent evidence?

There is no evidence in the OP and straw men don't make evidence magically appear

 

[nPeace]

The passage describes the saints getting up out of their tombs, going into the city and appearing before people.

Are you seriously suggesting that a hypothetical earthquake that opened some tombs matches this description?

I can only go by what I read, and understand. Not by what another believes.
The scriptures say, many bodies of the saints rose. Not the saints.
I understand that the bodies were raised up, from their tombs - exposed, and those who saw them - not the dead, after leaving the grave yard, entered into the temple.
That's how it reads.

It's a matter, of how one reads the text.
Remember, the Greek text, did not have punctuations, and parenthesis.
These must be taken into consideration when rendering the text in English.
The NWT reads...
And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep were raised up (and people coming out from among the tombs after his being raised up entered into the holy city), and they became visible to many people. (Matthew 27:52, 53)

That makes quite a difference, and keeps in line with the scriptures as well.
So no resurrections occured on that occasion.

Notice the next verse.
(Matthew 27:54) . . .But when the army officer and those with him keeping watch over Jesus saw the earthquake and the things happening, they grew very much afraid and said: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”

He was not in the temple, but he witnessed the earthquake, and the darkness, and these were reported on, evidently... Though not confirmed.

 

[nPeace]

There is no evidence in the OP and straw men don't make evidence magically appear

You don't want to see. That's okay. Why ask then?

 

[ElishaElijah]

“Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.” Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:12-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
Dissenters haven’t changed much.

 

[ChristineM]

You don't want to see. That's okay. Why ask then?

I would like to see validated evidence, not so tightly circular it doesn't count as evidence unless you use it to bolster confirmation bias. To date you have not shown any evidence that can be independently confirmed

 

[Jose Fly]

the only one that have to prove anything to a skeptic - non-believer - opposer of the Bible - critic of the Bible etc., is God.
Christians only need to prove to themselves.
Both of the above has been done.

So the point of this thread was to prove to yourself and your fellow Christians something that y'all already believe?

Congratulations.....I guess.

 

[nPeace]

This speaks to a point you made in the OP: that Jesus's resurrection could have been missed by many because it was hard to recognize the resurrected Jesus as Jesus.

I didn't say it could have been missed.
No one but his followers were given evidence that he was alive.
He was resurrected spirit.
He could have gone to heaven without letting a soul know, but he appeared to his followers, for them to know, but he used a body. It was not the same body, so no one would have recognized him.
He was recognized because of using familiar expressions, and actions, to his followers.
He had nothing to prove top the world,
The proof will come later, according to the Bible.
(Ezekiel 38:23) And I will certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.’

Even if that were true, we would still expect people to notice when an army of dead people emerge from their tombs, walk into the city, and appear before "many people."


Sure. So show me where people did wave it off as nonsense.
It did not occur, so I can't show you what is not written.

Show me the passage in Josephus or the Talmud or whatever that says something like "the false prophet Jesus staged a fake zombie invasion of Jerusalem. It frightened many, but was condemned as trickery"... or "many dead saints walked into the city. The followers of Jesus claimed that he had also been resurrected, but Jesus was not seen among the dead that walked through Jerusalem."

... anything like that.

Do you at least agree that if "many" dead people rise from the grave, walk into the city and are seen by "many" people, this is the sort of event that should get noticed by chroniclers?

Of course any spectacular or extraordinary event would not go unnoticed... but depending on who sees it.

For example, the Pharisees saw many things that were extraordinary, but what did they do? They tried to hide the evidence, and mislead the people.
John 9:24-34 ; John 12:9-11

Their had such a powerful hold on the people, that many kept their mouth shut, for fear. (John 12:42)

So, you can see, people could see things, and it can be kept within a community, and not spread.
Even if it is spread, how many would believe, unless they saw it with their own eyes?
Powerful works were your everyday "power of the gods" thing, or magician activity, among the Jewish people. (Acts 8:9-13)

 

[nPeace]

The Bible isn't automatically trustworthy. If you want to use it as the foundation of your argument, you'll need to establish that it really is trustworthy first.

Until then, the Bible is just a collection of claims, and establishing that any of those claims are true would need evidence from elsewhere.

Nobody wants to consider that with me. They all run away under the onslaught of evidence.

 

[nPeace]

I strongly suggest you look up the definition of "facts", nPeace. You're confusing it with "opinion."

Then help me. Point out the "fact" that is just an opinion, please.

 

[nPeace]

So the point of this thread was to prove to yourself and your fellow Christians something that y'all already believe?

Congratulations.....I guess.

No sir. The point of the thread... in fact...
In this thread, I will show that [the claim that there is no evidence for Jesus' resurrection] is false, and that it is both irrational, and unreasonable, to demand particular expectations be met.
The following is looking at the facts reasonably.

The second part is flying over the skeptics head, because they keep repeatedly doing it.
So they will never get it.

Imagine that someone asks you to make your car fly to prove that you can drive.
You say to them, "Man, that's unreasonable, and an irrational demand."
However, regardless of the fact that you show them why it is unreasonable, and irrational, they continue to make the demand.

Now take a second look at the posts in the thread.

My point exactly.

 

[Jose Fly]

No sir. The point of the thread... in fact...
In this thread, I will show

To who? You just said that your intent isn't to prove anything to non-Christians because only God can do that.

So who is your intended audience here?

The second part is flying over the skeptics head, because they keep repeatedly doing it.
So they will never get it.

Then who is your argument for?

 

[nPeace]

To who? You just said that your intent isn't to prove anything to non-Christians because only God can do that.

So who is your intended audience here?


Then who is your argument for?

Do I speak German?
I don't. Is this communication problem my fault.
I suggest you read the last post again. It's English, Fly.
Just for once, take your mind off what you have focused your mind on to run with.
Let it go, while you read.

 

[Jose Fly]

Do I speak German?
I don't. Is this communication problem my fault.
I suggest you read the last post again. It's English, Fly.
Just for once, take your mind off what you have focused your mind on to run with.
Let it go, while you read.

And once again you balk at answering a simple question.

Oh well....

 

[blü 2]

You don't want to see. That's okay. Why ask then?

Or perhaps we see too much. @Sayak has already mentioned that resurrections were common in ancient times. In the bible already ─
* Elijah raised the Zarephath woman’s son (1 Kings 17:17+).
* Elisha raised the Shunammite woman’s son (2 Kings 4:32+).
* The man whose dead body touched Elisha’s bones was resurrected (2 Kings 13:21)
* Jesus raised the Nain widow’s son (Luke 7:12+).
* Jesus raised Lazarus (John 11:41-44).

and then later
* Peter raised Tabitha / Dorcas (Acts 9:36-40).
* Matthew describes the faithful dead at large in the streets of Jerusalem (Matthew 27:52-53), though you may be right to call these zombies rather than resurrections.

Earlier resurrections resulting in god status include ─
Dumuzi in Sumer
Osiris in Egypt
Dionusos in Greece
Herakles in Greece

More ordinary resurrections include the mortal physician Asklepios raising Lukourgos, Kapaneos and Tundareos from the dead, and Glaukos, Hippolutos and Orion were resurrected too – as indeed was Asklepios himself. Eurudike, and Scandanavia’s Baldr, nearly made it back. Persephone and Adonis had to spend only half their time in the Underworld.

How many of those do you accept as historical truth? By what criteria?