If I want to be with people I have to learn to be with normals. It's just the way it is. LOL
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Heaven and John the Baptist
- Thread starter savagewind
- Start date
DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
Pcarl told you the truth.
See here where the authors justifies the point with scripture. I will hear no arguments from anyone against scripture, including the pope himself
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OK. That is not a link to anything but the forums.
I am not arguing against scripture. I do not know why you think I am.
I am arguing against what the Watchtower teaches.
I agree with him. Are you saying that you agree with what the Watchtower teaches?
@DavidFirth @pcarl
That you are not disagreeing with the Watchtower teaching that people who died before Jesus died will never go to Heaven, am I to assume that you DO agree with that?
That you are not disagreeing with the Watchtower teaching that people who died before Jesus died will never go to Heaven, am I to assume that you DO agree with that?
I was taught to believe that nobody who had died before Jesus Christ died will ever get to Heaven.
It is what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach.
The reason why they think it is true that only people who died after Jesus died will go there is that
they believe Jesus made the way there and it is written that no one has ever gone to Heaven.... John 3:13
...and "David did not ascend into heaven" at Acts of the Apostles 2:34
I have no reason to doubt that nobody before Jesus lived and died ever reached Heaven.
I believe in a resurrection. I have no good reason not to.
Now, imagine the resurrection of John the Baptist and imagine that he will be resurrected to the Earth
and if the Jehovah's Witnesses get their way, being told the reason why he is on Earth and not in Heaven.
He will be told that because he had died before Jesus died he won't be seeing Jesus anymore.
He might say, "it is written that God will satisfy the desire of every living thing and I want to be with Christ in Heaven!"
And they will try to persuade him not to want that. It is what they do.
Now imagine the rest of them being told, "no! No Heaven for you!"
Daniel; Isaiah, Moses (he might be on Earth imo), Able, Noah (he should probably be an Earthling imo), David,
oh, I don't know who else. I can believe that some of them who made the way for Jesus Christ' coming might be happy to never ever be with God in Heaven, but anyway, that is what they believe, teach, and say that you have to believe it too so that God might view you too as a righteous one and YOU can have access to Heaven according to the Jehovah's Witnesses, but only if you agree with them.
I don't agree with them.
The problem is how we as humans percieve time. Which is in a straight line only going forward. But God exist outside of time so yesterday, today, and tomorrow are all happening at the same time for Him.
Basically, we percieve time as a 2 dimensional string that only gets pulled in one direction, once reeled in it cannot be reeled back out, its done its in the past.
The Lord experiences time as a sheet in which he can move 3 dimensionally in any direction at anytime. (Imagine a bowling ball rolling around on a sheet thats been held taut all around its edges)
So that being said no one has been sentenced to heaven or hell just yet. Because no one gets judged till after the apocalypse. And then we will all be judged together. Thats what the millennia in revelations is meant for.
I think I can't assume otherwise that you are accusing me of perhaps arguing against scripture.
I think that you should tell me how you think I am doing so (if you think I am).
If you don't think I have argued against scripture, then I believe you should say so.
Yea I know that feeling. I once worked in seattle and lived in astoria oregon. People asked why, and I said I can only stand everyone for 5 days I can take live with you 24/7. I am not anti social at all but like a dog I need to be let off the leash regularly to run around in the wild. Muir got that more poetically than this pitiful posting of mine. Sauntering in the mountains playing my guitar, drawing good pictures is a very good escape into the reality of nature.
I think that you should not be married.
It is a good post. Except this part, though when someone makes a mistake, or I think he does, it sets off another region of my brain. This is the part that I as a wannabe editor must question.
Now that I am here and procrastinating I shall let you all (except, of course, @Jayhawker Soule because I am his ignore something-or-other, and everyone else who has put me on technical ignore and/or doesn't read me) know that I had a perfect summer guest this few months previous and she seems to know about our type of people.
And yes, I drink alone sometimes.
And yes, I drink alone sometimes.
John the Baptist didn't drink......it is written.
Matthew 11:11 Living Bible - "Truly, of all men ever born, none shines more brightly than John the Baptist. And yet, even the lesser lights in the Kingdom of Heaven will be greater than he is." This Jesus said while John was in prison and after Johns disciples had a question for from John himself - "Äre you really the one we are waiting for, or shall we keep looking?"I was taught to believe that nobody who had died before Jesus Christ died will ever get to Heaven.
It is what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach.
The reason why they think it is true that only people who died after Jesus died will go there is that
they believe Jesus made the way there and it is written that no one has ever gone to Heaven.... John 3:13
...and "David did not ascend into heaven" at Acts of the Apostles 2:34
I have no reason to doubt that nobody before Jesus lived and died ever reached Heaven.
I believe in a resurrection. I have no good reason not to.
Now, imagine the resurrection of John the Baptist and imagine that he will be resurrected to the Earth
and if the Jehovah's Witnesses get their way, being told the reason why he is on Earth and not in Heaven.
He will be told that because he had died before Jesus died he won't be seeing Jesus anymore.
He might say, "it is written that God will satisfy the desire of every living thing and I want to be with Christ in Heaven!"
And they will try to persuade him not to want that. It is what they do.
Now imagine the rest of them being told, "no! No Heaven for you!"
Daniel; Isaiah, Moses (he might be on Earth imo), Able, Noah (he should probably be an Earthling imo), David,
oh, I don't know who else. I can believe that some of them who made the way for Jesus Christ' coming might be happy to never ever be with God in Heaven, but anyway, that is what they believe, teach, and say that you have to believe it too so that God might view you too as a righteous one and YOU can have access to Heaven according to the Jehovah's Witnesses, but only if you agree with them.
I don't agree with them.
Someone mentioned rightly in their post on this subject - it is all to do with timing.
Did Jesus know John would die soon after why he uttered those words of John? Who knows.
So if it is to do with timing Jesus gave the reason why to and His Father.
Living Bible John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son so that any one who BELIEVES in him shall not perish but have eternal life."*
Living Bible John 17:3 "And this is the way to have eternal life - by knowing you - the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth!""*
LB "John 14:22 - - "Sir why are you going to reveal yourself only to us disciples and not to the world at large?" Jesus replied, "Because I will only reveal myself to those who love me and obey me. The Father will love them too, and we will come to them and live with them. Anyone who doesn't obey me doesn't love me. And remember, I am not making up this answer to your question! It is the answer given by the Father who sent me. I am telling you these things while I am still with you."
LB John 14:6 "I am the Way, yes, and the Truth and the Life. No one can get to the Father except by means of me."
Jesus resurrected persons from the dead while on - like Lazarus his friend. Martha - Lazarus' sister said she believed in the resurrection in the last day. John 11:24.
He (and I think this is the whole point) said at LB John 11:25 "I am the one who raises the dead and gives them life again. Anyone who believes in me, even though he dies like anyone else, shall live again. He is given eternal life for believing in me and shall never perish again."**
LB John 5:28 "Don't be so surprised! Indeed the time is coming when all the dead in their graves shall hear the voice of God's Son, and shall rise again...."
The foregoing resurrection is what Jesus told the evildoer by his side at LB Luke 23:43 "Today you with me in Paradise. This is a solemn promise." Obviously the evildoer didn't believe in Jesus and the only paradise humans know of is the first one in Eden. Plus Jesus lay the best part of 3 days in the tomb so the evildoer would not be going to heaven. Rather when the evildoer said to Jesus - "remember me when you come into your Kingdom." Jesus knew he would be resurrected to earth along with righteous and unrighteous persons on earth. LB John 5:29
The Bible speaks of different resurrections. The First resurrection of which Jesus would have been the first to experience is spoken of at Revelation 20:5.
The resurrection of the dead Jesus spoke of in John 5:28, 29 is of mankind who have died before and after Jesus including numerous ancient servants of God like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses and all those at Hebrews 11 including the prophets.
Rev 20:5 The final resurrection is at the end of the thousand years. Spiritually, physically, mentally, psychologically and emotionally man is now perfect. (Ephesians 2:1 LB "Once you were under Gods curse doomed forever because of your sins." after a thousand years perfect humans now stand before God) When the final test occurs - after Satan is released from his abyss - man is at the same stage Adam and Eve were. Perfect.
How many fail this final test - Rev 20:6 LB nations of the world - a mighty host, numberless as sand along the shore.
Why does it matter - Living Bible 1 Thessalonians 1:7, 8 "And so I say to you who are suffering, God will give you rest along with us when the Lord Jesus appears suddenly from heaven in flaming fire with his mighty angels bringing judgement on those who do not wish to know God and who refuse to accept his plans to save them through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Everyone is given an opportunity to hear Gods message through the preaching work Jesus started and commanded his followers to do - Matthew 24:14 "for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come."
God doesn't force people to choose they make a choice to listen or not.
LB Galatians 6:7 "Don't be misled! remember that you cant ignore God and get away with it: a man will always reap just the kind of crop he sows!"
Matthew 11:11 Living Bible - "Truly, of all men ever born, none shines more brightly than John the Baptist. And yet, even the lesser lights in the Kingdom of Heaven will be greater than he is." This Jesus said while John was in prison and after Johns disciples had a question for from John himself - "Äre you really the one we are waiting for, or shall we keep looking?"I was taught to believe that nobody who had died before Jesus Christ died will ever get to Heaven.
It is what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach.
The reason why they think it is true that only people who died after Jesus died will go there is that
they believe Jesus made the way there and it is written that no one has ever gone to Heaven.... John 3:13
...and "David did not ascend into heaven" at Acts of the Apostles 2:34
I have no reason to doubt that nobody before Jesus lived and died ever reached Heaven.
I believe in a resurrection. I have no good reason not to.
Now, imagine the resurrection of John the Baptist and imagine that he will be resurrected to the Earth
and if the Jehovah's Witnesses get their way, being told the reason why he is on Earth and not in Heaven.
He will be told that because he had died before Jesus died he won't be seeing Jesus anymore.
He might say, "it is written that God will satisfy the desire of every living thing and I want to be with Christ in Heaven!"
And they will try to persuade him not to want that. It is what they do.
Now imagine the rest of them being told, "no! No Heaven for you!"
Daniel; Isaiah, Moses (he might be on Earth imo), Able, Noah (he should probably be an Earthling imo), David,
oh, I don't know who else. I can believe that some of them who made the way for Jesus Christ' coming might be happy to never ever be with God in Heaven, but anyway, that is what they believe, teach, and say that you have to believe it too so that God might view you too as a righteous one and YOU can have access to Heaven according to the Jehovah's Witnesses, but only if you agree with them.
I don't agree with them.
Someone mentioned rightly in their post on this subject - it is all to do with timing.
Did Jesus know John would die soon after why he uttered those words of John? Who knows.
So if it is to do with timing Jesus gave the reason why to and His Father.
Living Bible John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son so that any one who BELIEVES in him shall not perish but have eternal life."*
Living Bible John 17:3 "And this is the way to have eternal life - by knowing you - the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth!""*
LB "John 14:22 - - "Sir why are you going to reveal yourself only to us disciples and not to the world at large?" Jesus replied, "Because I will only reveal myself to those who love me and obey me. The Father will love them too, and we will come to them and live with them. Anyone who doesn't obey me doesn't love me. And remember, I am not making up this answer to your question! It is the answer given by the Father who sent me. I am telling you these things while I am still with you."
LB John 14:6 "I am the Way, yes, and the Truth and the Life. No one can get to the Father except by means of me."
Jesus resurrected persons from the dead while on earth - like Lazarus his friend. Martha - Lazarus' sister said she believed in the resurrection in the last day. John 11:24.
He (and I think this is the whole point) said at LB John 11:25 "I am the one who raises the dead and gives them life again. Anyone who believes in me, even though he dies like anyone else, shall live again. He is given eternal life for believing in me and shall never perish again."**
LB John 5:28 "Don't be so surprised! Indeed the time is coming when all the dead in their graves shall hear the voice of God's Son, and shall rise again...."
The foregoing resurrection is what Jesus told the evildoer by his side at LB Luke 23:43 "Today you with me in Paradise. This is a solemn promise." Obviously the evildoer didn't believe in Jesus and the only paradise humans know of is the first one in Eden. Plus Jesus lay the best part of 3 days in the tomb so the evildoer would not be going to heaven. Rather when the evildoer said to Jesus - "remember me when you come into your Kingdom." Jesus knew he would be resurrected to earth along with righteous and unrighteous persons on earth. LB John 5:29
The Bible speaks of different resurrections. The First resurrection of which Jesus would have been the first to experience is spoken of at Revelation 20:5.
The resurrection of the dead Jesus spoke of in John 5:28, 29 is of mankind who have died before and after Jesus including numerous ancient servants of God like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses and all those at Hebrews 11 including the prophets. And why not John?
Rev 20:5 The final resurrection is at the end of the thousand years. Spiritually, physically, mentally, psychologically and emotionally man is now perfect. (Ephesians 2:1 LB "Once you were under Gods curse doomed forever because of your sins." after a thousand years perfect humans now stand before God) When the final test occurs - after Satan is released from his abyss - man is at the same stage Adam and Eve were. Perfect.
How many fail this final test - Rev 20:6 LB nations of the world - a mighty host, numberless as sand along the shore.
Why does it matter - Living Bible 1 Thessalonians 1:7, 8 "And so I say to you who are suffering, God will give you rest along with us when the Lord Jesus appears suddenly from heaven in flaming fire with his mighty angels bringing judgement on those who do not wish to know God and who refuse to accept his plans to save them through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Everyone is given an opportunity to hear Gods message through the preaching work Jesus started and commanded his followers to do - Matthew 24:14 "for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come."
God doesn't force people to choose they make a choice to listen or not.
LB Galatians 6:7 "Don't be misled! remember that you cant ignore God and get away with it: a man will always reap just the kind of crop he sows!"
Oh, I am SO sorry. Just like @Deeje says, you may be misled if you want to.
Please, try this> Verily I say to you, there hath not risen, among those born of women, a greater than John the Baptist, but he who is least in the reign of the heavens is
It's just a too bad that you believe the words are being protected by Jehovah, but what makes MUCH!!!!!!!! more sense is that the words can protect YOU. But, the only way the words can protect you is if you have them right!
Everyone in the Kingdom of God is AS GREAT as everyone else there.
You may except Jesus Christ and Jehovah ALMIGHTY GOD
You may except Jesus Christ and Jehovah ALMIGHTY GOD