Hell is not discipline; it is torture

[Darkness]

As a "Westerner" I agree with that description, Lewis made an excellent illustration there. I don't think anything about the "West" denies that description of Hell. Everyone who goes to Hell deserves to go there because of their own actions.

Because God created us imperfect, God has to send us to hell. That is one great being you Christians worship. :sarcastic

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Your use of the term desert shows just how western your view is.

When did I say, "desert"?

The doors being locked from the inside has nothing to do with desert, but has to do with the fact that it is our attitude to God that condemns us to hell and not God's attitude to us. Nobody, no matter their actions in this life, deserves heaven - it's a gift of God.

I agree...that's what I just said.

You'd do well, i think to investigate some of the Church Fathers, such as St. Isaac the Syrian to see the view (now mostly eastern but the common heritage of east and west) that Lewis had in mind. He was far less western in outlook than your answer to my post.

I just said I agree with you, as I did last time...not sure what you want me to say. The West agrees with you there.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Because God created us imperfect, God has to send us to hell.

We send ourselves to Hell. You should be asking why God has to send us to Heaven.

That is one great being you Christians worship. :sarcastic

What great being do you worship?

 

[James the Persian]

When did I say, "desert"?

You didn't, you said deserve, but that's the appropriate verb. The problem is that if you say someone deserves to be in hell, you appear to be saying that God punishes them because they deserve it, which is the traditional western view but incompatible with Lewis' quote. If that's not what you meant then I apologise for the misunderstanding but I hope you can see why I made the comment I did.

James

 

[lilithu]

Verse 4 there is a conditional prophecy. It's a warning to Ninevah.

Actually, no.

The language that Jonah uses is not conditional.

He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned."

Not, "Unless you repent..."

The king's response was: "Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish."

In other words, "God may change his mind." Not, "God has given us one more chance."

AND Jonah gets angry at God when God decides not to destroy Ninevah.

Jonah 4: 1-3 (which immediately follows the verses that I quoted above)
But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live."


God changed His mind.

 

[wmam]

Actually, no.

The language that Jonah uses is not conditional.

He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned."

Not, "Unless you repent..."

The king's response was: "Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish."

In other words, "God may change his mind." Not, "God has given us one more chance."

AND Jonah gets angry at God when God decides not to destroy Ninevah.

Jonah 4: 1-3 (which immediately follows the verses that I quoted above)
But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live."


God changed His mind.

So even though one can plainly see that through out the whole of the Scriptures that the Most High has given a curse or a blessing, life or death, and as it has been stated so many, many times that "If you do my commandments you shall live" or "and if you do not my commandments then" this or that is going to happen to you, that one cannot see that Yonah was giving a warning to the people of Nineveh? Question? How did the men on the boat to Tarshish know that Yonah was a man of Elohim? The language used doesn't seem to say that they were told such. I have to say that the people of Nineveh knew who he was as did those on the boat and knew he was speaking to them the sayings of the Most High and as it is stated that they believed Elohim and changed their ways which caused their choice of death to turn to one of life. If one was to see this anyother way I am afraid that it just doesn't stand to Scriptural scrutiny. Remember a little here and a little there, line upon line.

 

[lilithu]

So even though one can plainly see that through out the whole of the Scriptures that the Most High has given a curse or a blessing, life or death, and as it has been stated so many, many times that "If you do my commandments you shall live" or "and if you do not my commandments then" this or that is going to happen to you, that one cannot see that Yonah was giving a warning to the people of Nineveh? Question? How did the men on the boat to Tarshish know that Yonah was a man of Elohim? The language used doesn't seem to say that they were told such. I have to say that the people of Nineveh knew who he was as did those on the boat and knew he was speaking to them the sayings of the Most High and as it is stated that they believed Elohim and changed their ways which caused their choice of death to turn to one of life. If one was to see this anyother way I am afraid that it just doesn't stand to Scriptural scrutiny. Remember a little here and a little there, line upon line.

The issue at hand is whether God is bound to punish people even when there is nothing to be gained by it in order to show that He keeps His word. Or whether He does occasionally change His mind and show mercy.

 

[wizanda]

Hell is here according to Christ and the Bible, the bible speaks of sheol or sole of the foot, here is God’s foot stool.

God made the heaven and the earth, he didn’t make Satan and when God asked Satan where did you come from Satan replies walking the earth.

 

[Darkness]

We send ourselves to Hell. You should be asking why God has to send us to Heaven.

What you are saying is that we forcefully choose to lock ourselves in Hell for Eternity? God is not even involved or is this just a pathetic attempt to make God look innocent?

Putting aside the problems of Heaven, God should bring us to Heaven because we are his sons and daughters, and He loves us. Why should he give up on us for all eternity?

What great being do you worship?

I do not worship any being.

 

[Buttercup]

I quite agree with the OP, but that is very much the western view of hell. What if the gates of hell are locked from the inside (as I believe C.S. Lewis once put it)? That would be more the eastern view. In other words we place ourselves there, it's not eternal punishment from God but eternal self-punishment despite God. That puts rather a different spin on things, does it not?

James

Why would we punish ourselves eternally?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

You didn't, you said deserve, but that's the appropriate verb. The problem is that if you say someone deserves to be in hell, you appear to be saying that God punishes them because they deserve it

Not entirely true. Whether you see it as them punishing themselves or God punishing them, we all deserve it. No one goes to Hell who doesn't deserve it. I don't see how you can disgaree with that statement.

 

[Buttercup]

Not entirely true. Whether you see it as them punishing themselves or God punishing them, we all deserve it. No one goes to Hell who doesn't deserve it. I don't see how you can disgaree with that statement.

I assume you think that Christianity is the only way to divert from hell? Do you understand that Muslims feel the same? Why can't they be right and not you? Or how about neither?

You honestly think a supposed loving God is going to send a person to hell because they lived their entire live in faithful service to another religion besides Christianity all the while believing their religion was the one true way? If God were truly loving....there would be one religion to follow without the threat of hell. And belief in that one true religion would include a personal visit to cement the book teachings. Otherwise it's a trap.

How can a fallible human know the "one true religion"?

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Actually, no.

The language that Jonah uses is not conditional.

He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned."

Not, "Unless you repent..."

The king's response was: "Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish."

In other words, "God may change his mind." Not, "God has given us one more chance."

Based on that entire context, it's clear that the prophecy is conditional. If it wasn't, what good would it do for the Ninevites to change their ways? Clearly they saw the possibility that their destruction could be stopped. This does not equate to God "changing His mind" but rather relenting in His action due to human penitence.

AND Jonah gets angry at God when God decides not to destroy Ninevah.

Jonah 4: 1-3 (which immediately follows the verses that I quoted above)
But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity. Now, O LORD, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live."

Precisely. And clearly that attitude is wrong. Jonah should be jumping with joy that people have turned to the one true God...instead, he's gone suicidal. Jesus discussed the exact same mentality in Matthew 20.

God changed His mind

No, God relented from an action due to human penitence.


PS - what does this have to do with the topic of the thread, again?

 

[spacemonkey]

The description of hell as a place of eternal torture isn't actually in the Bible anywhere. The idea of this kind of place existing is a compilation of pagan myths (the name Hell itself comes from the Norse Hel) and imaginative writers such as Dante and Homer (yes Homer, in the Odyssey Odysseus travels to Hades where he sees the torture of Tantalus and Sisyphus).

 

[wmam]

The issue at hand is whether God is bound

I wouldn't go along with the Most High being bound to anything as He is the creator and not the created and will do as He wants with His creation as He see's fit.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against Elohim? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

to punish people even when there is nothing to be gained by it in order to show that He keeps His word.

I don't know if you can call it punishment but as it is stated........

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Which leads me to .............

Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

You said when there is nothing to gain by it? Well by whose definition are we going by here? Yours? Mans? Or should we accept that of the Most High?

Or whether He does occasionally change His mind and show mercy.

Mal 3:6 For I am YAH, I change not; therefore ye sons of Yaqob are not consumed.

We change our minds to either obey or not and as it is stated to either choose life or death, Blessing or curse.

 

[lilithu]

PS - what does this have to do with the topic of the thread, again?

It has to do with you suggesting that the reason why God burns people in Hell (even tho it serves no rehabilitative purpose) is to show that He keeps His word.

 

[Darkness]

The description of hell as a place of eternal torture isn't actually in the Bible anywhere. The idea of this kind of place existing is a compilation of pagan myths (the name Hell itself comes from the Norse Hel) and imaginative writers such as Dante and Homer (yes Homer, in the Odyssey Odysseus travels to Hades where he sees the torture of Tantalus and Sisyphus).

I am glad someone mentioned this. In the Scriptures which make up our modern bibles, the words translated Hell are Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna. Neither of these mean Hell. Sheol and Hades are the "state of death." Gehenna was a garbage pit in Jerusalem, and Tartarus is a place where angels are kept awaiting judgment. In edition, the word most bibles translate as Eternal, "Aionion," should really be translated "Eonian". It is the adjective of Aion, which means "Eon" or "Age."

Because most Christians believe in an eternal Hell, I attack those beliefs and not what I see the Scriptures actually teach. Jesus, a kind and loving man, did not believe God would torture sinners for all eternity.

I am not about to get into a debate about the meaning of these words, though. I have been over it many, many times. :yes:

 

[lilithu]

I am glad someone mentioned this. In the Scriptures which make up our modern bibles, the words translated Hell are Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna. Neither of these mean Hell. Sheol and Hades are the "state of death." Gehenna was a garbage pit in Jerusalem, and Tartarus is a place where angels are kept awaiting judgment. In edition, the word most bibles translate as Eternal, "Aionion," should really be translated "Eonian". It is the adjective of Aion, which means "Eon" or "Age."

Because most Christians believe in an eternal Hell, I attack those beliefs and not what I see the Scriptures actually teach. Jesus, a kind and loving man, did not believe God would torture sinners for all eternity.

Just out of curiosity Darkness, how do you deal with the following passages?

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:


For the record, I don't believe in eternal hell, and I love Jesus. :hearts: But I'm not so sure that he didn't believe in hell.

 

[Kungfuzed]

I have always thought it was rediculous to give an eternal reward or punishment based on the faith and or works of this one little life. Human beings are not static and unchanging. We are constantly changing. Constantly in motion. What is God going to do when, after all of heaven has been saved for all eternity by Jesus, yet another third of the hosts of heaven decides to rebel against Him? After a few hundred years He'll realize that there are people in hell that have become good and people in heaven that have become evil. Change is our nature. To assign anything eternally permanent to us is absurd. If He doesn't like who we are right now, just wait another day or two.

 

[astarath]

i think currently the challenge and constant change is due to the distance from God but once we are all closer to God no one will ever want to leave. As far as good people going to hell. That will be for God to decide but his Law is easy his yoke is light, if you deny him now by what right shall you be saved without faith?