Okay fair enough. Then anyone on this forum could possibly fit into that next category and it would be no big deal. If you can have "sort of" friends then maybe that is a solution to your dilemma.A true true true friend is somebody who's on your wavelength, and who you like meeting and hanging with and watching Star Trek vids with, simple as that..
The next category of friend would be "sort of" friends, and prossie Sue is one of them..
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Waymarker
Member
Firstly, hypothetical questions aren't worth much because none of us know how we'd react in such real-life situations, but if any pal of mine became an atheist he'd be out of my life on his/her butt!
Same with families. "Don't mention Satan to your nieces" said my sister just before Christmas, so I haven't spoken to her or my nieces since, we've nothing in common..
"a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'Matt 10:36
existentialangst
Lev19:18/Mark 12:31
Matthew is talking about enemies of the spirit not enemies of people who dont hold your beliefs "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted"matt 23:12. Dont you care enough to humble yourself enough to be a good example to your nieces since they are family and you have had a previous relationship with them.
This all makes me glad I'm a DWBHist; we only recognize two catagories of people and they are;
Reasonable Human Beings
and
The members of the Society of Holier Than Thou Hypocrites and Egomaniacal Apostles of the Double Standard.
If you fall under the first category, whatever else you are is besides the point.
If you fall under the second, whatever else you are is also besides the point.
Reasonable Human Beings
and
The members of the Society of Holier Than Thou Hypocrites and Egomaniacal Apostles of the Double Standard.
If you fall under the first category, whatever else you are is besides the point.
If you fall under the second, whatever else you are is also besides the point.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Thanks for the reply. You have been making hypothetical statements about friendship, so I saw nothing wrong in hypothetical questions. I suspected that you would answer as you did, because you feel compelled by your religious beliefs to take those positions. In other words, your religion overrides any personal feelings that you might have, although maybe it just amplifies your personal feelings.
It is a pity that your religious beliefs drive you to shun potential friends and real family members. Most Christians do not strike me as quite so intolerant. For example, my grandparents were Jehovah's Witnesses, and both of their sons became apostates. Yet they never stopped loving, caring for, and helping them. Nevertheless, your attitude has not been so uncommon among Christians throughout history. It is an evangelical religion, and for some that means a carrot and stick approach to personal relationships with others.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Hey everyone: can we stop with the personal remarks? There are actually issues here about Christianity, and attitudes about religion in general, that are worth talking about.
I.m.o. the "don't be friends with non-Christians" argument doesn't hold up even if we constrain ourselves to what it says in the New Testament (let's neglect the special case of self-described Satanists for now). Most of the quotes Waymarker brought up, which say to dust off your feet and leave if people reject the Gospel, etc., are specifically in the context of the early church's missionary work. The gospels and Paul are talking about what evangelists should do, when they are going around evangelizing: if people reject your message, move on to the next house, or the next town. (This is almost common sense.) They are not saying that average Christians cannot befriend non-Christians in their day-to-day lives. We know from historical context that when Christianity was just beginning to spread, most Christians had many close non-Christian friends and family, even spouses. The emperor Constantine's wife was Chrsitian long before he converted, for example. And then of course we have all the examples of Jesus praising non-Christians, such as the good Samaritan, and breaking bread with "tax collectors", etc.
Other quotes don't necessarily mean what Waymarker interpreted them to mean. For example, John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you .... logically, this does NOT imply that the converse is true: Ye are NOT my friends, if ye do NOT do whatsoever I command you. On the other hand, this converse may have still been intended, since the Gospel writers weren't necessarily well-versed in logic and made logical errors.
Then there is a separate issue: IF there are some things in the Bible which suggest Christians should not be friends with non-Christians, is this in fact an ethical/reasonable teaching?
Now to get back to the issue of "Should a Christian be friends with a Satanist"....First let's just establish that it is perfectly reasonable to choose not to be "friends" with some people. I probably would not accept a friend request from someone who is proudly a member of the Ku Klux Klan, for example. This doesn't mean I wish them harm, I just don't consider that person my friend. The enemy of my friends (blacks, Jews, gays, etc.) is not my friend.
You could argue about the subtleties of whether or not it is better to be friends with everyone, and thereby try to change their minds. That's a good argument. But I think we all have to agree it is at least reasonable, and understandable, to restrict friendship in some cases. No one would call me intolerant, or an egomaniacal jerk, for choosing not to accept a "friend" request from a neo-Nazi; even though it may be the case that this particular "neo-Nazi" is just a harmless, confused and ignorant white guy, who's really a nice person at heart, and by becoming his friend maybe I can help him "see the light". But if this is one of those people who aren't going to "see the light" and are pushing for a racist agenda in the real-world, it's no longer a debate between friends; it's a (peaceful) struggle between opponents, and he's not my friend.
The question, ultimately, is: are we making that choice of "friends" for good reasons? My crieria are generally that my "friends" are honest, tolerant people who support democracy and oppose bullying (preferably a sense of humor). Other than that, I don't care what gods you worship or how you pray.
Within the context of Christianity, Satanism is in principle far worse than racism, or Nazi-ism, or anything else you can think of. It seems to me that within Christianity, therefore, one would understandably be disinclined to be "friends" with a Satanist. The only argument in favor of the "friendship" would be that most "Satanists" aren't really worshipping Satan the way they are depicted worshipping Satan in legends and witch myths, drinking the blood of babies and destroying crops and whatnot. So you could argue that a Christian should be friends with a confused, relatively harmless Satanist, but not with a dedicated one (if you get what I'm saying).
Now of course the question becomes, above and beyond Christianity, from a purely ethical perspective, is this a reasonable or fair way of choosing friendship?
I.m.o. the "don't be friends with non-Christians" argument doesn't hold up even if we constrain ourselves to what it says in the New Testament (let's neglect the special case of self-described Satanists for now). Most of the quotes Waymarker brought up, which say to dust off your feet and leave if people reject the Gospel, etc., are specifically in the context of the early church's missionary work. The gospels and Paul are talking about what evangelists should do, when they are going around evangelizing: if people reject your message, move on to the next house, or the next town. (This is almost common sense.) They are not saying that average Christians cannot befriend non-Christians in their day-to-day lives. We know from historical context that when Christianity was just beginning to spread, most Christians had many close non-Christian friends and family, even spouses. The emperor Constantine's wife was Chrsitian long before he converted, for example. And then of course we have all the examples of Jesus praising non-Christians, such as the good Samaritan, and breaking bread with "tax collectors", etc.
Other quotes don't necessarily mean what Waymarker interpreted them to mean. For example, John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you .... logically, this does NOT imply that the converse is true: Ye are NOT my friends, if ye do NOT do whatsoever I command you. On the other hand, this converse may have still been intended, since the Gospel writers weren't necessarily well-versed in logic and made logical errors.
Then there is a separate issue: IF there are some things in the Bible which suggest Christians should not be friends with non-Christians, is this in fact an ethical/reasonable teaching?
Now to get back to the issue of "Should a Christian be friends with a Satanist"....First let's just establish that it is perfectly reasonable to choose not to be "friends" with some people. I probably would not accept a friend request from someone who is proudly a member of the Ku Klux Klan, for example. This doesn't mean I wish them harm, I just don't consider that person my friend. The enemy of my friends (blacks, Jews, gays, etc.) is not my friend.
You could argue about the subtleties of whether or not it is better to be friends with everyone, and thereby try to change their minds. That's a good argument. But I think we all have to agree it is at least reasonable, and understandable, to restrict friendship in some cases. No one would call me intolerant, or an egomaniacal jerk, for choosing not to accept a "friend" request from a neo-Nazi; even though it may be the case that this particular "neo-Nazi" is just a harmless, confused and ignorant white guy, who's really a nice person at heart, and by becoming his friend maybe I can help him "see the light". But if this is one of those people who aren't going to "see the light" and are pushing for a racist agenda in the real-world, it's no longer a debate between friends; it's a (peaceful) struggle between opponents, and he's not my friend.
The question, ultimately, is: are we making that choice of "friends" for good reasons? My crieria are generally that my "friends" are honest, tolerant people who support democracy and oppose bullying (preferably a sense of humor). Other than that, I don't care what gods you worship or how you pray.
Within the context of Christianity, Satanism is in principle far worse than racism, or Nazi-ism, or anything else you can think of. It seems to me that within Christianity, therefore, one would understandably be disinclined to be "friends" with a Satanist. The only argument in favor of the "friendship" would be that most "Satanists" aren't really worshipping Satan the way they are depicted worshipping Satan in legends and witch myths, drinking the blood of babies and destroying crops and whatnot. So you could argue that a Christian should be friends with a confused, relatively harmless Satanist, but not with a dedicated one (if you get what I'm saying).
Now of course the question becomes, above and beyond Christianity, from a purely ethical perspective, is this a reasonable or fair way of choosing friendship?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Reject their request. You wouldn't want to be corrupted by low-lifes.
Seven
six plus one
Before you lump Satanists with pedophiles and murderers perhaps you should find out a little more about Left Hand Path beliefs.
Oh I'm sure you can if you put your mind to it
Perhaps if you were to try following the example of Jesus...jesus said I came with a sword, to divide brother against father,he was saying some will chose jesus, some wont and there will be a division. ask your self should I hang out with evil, the bible tells you not to ,the thing is if you are trying to be a real christian,your so called friends will leave you.. peace and love to you
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Well, the same right back at ya, gzusfrk. Peace and love and all those..er..other thoughts.
I think that Spinks made a very good point about interpreting those passages in the NT. They were meant to address how one ought to evangelize more than how one ought to treat personal relationships. Jesus wasn't known to go around with weapons, although he did get a little rowdy with the moneylenders in the Temple.
Nor did he seem to have an angry attitude towards nonbelievers most of the time. After all, if you are trying to win converts, contempt and anger are not always winning strategies. On the other hand, Christians have never been in full agreement on just how one ought to behave and remain in God's good graces. That might account for why the Bible sometimes seems to pull in different directions, allowing anyone to justify just about any behavior that they find suits their needs.
Luminous
non-existential luminary
same here. but the reverse.Even though I find nonchristians to be boring people I'm still polite and hospitable to to them, but when it comes to actually wanting them as friends, no way ho-zay!
Jesus said "You're my friends if you follow me"-John 15:14, and likewise I too only want friends who follow him..
. i guess wickedness and rightousness are not too far apart. or perhaps you just love being right and being agreed with like many of the rest of us. But please, as my lil bro once told me: "dont look for wickedness amongst your neighbors, lest it find its way into your home." instead of tryin to not be nonchristian try being yourself.
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Luminous
non-existential luminary
And Allah calls you swine... so right back at ya.God himself calls christians his "elect" so argue with him when you meet him..
Code:
PS i dought Allah actually calls him swine.
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
If you like someone, and you want to be their friend, accept the offer. If you don't like them (for whatever reason) feel free to decline the offer.
If you choose to decline the friendship of another person for such a shallow reason, I would consider that a "lucky break" for the other person.
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
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The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
As a gambling man, I would be willing to bet that "hypothetical" friends are the only type that Waymarker is qualified to comment on.
Luminous
non-existential luminary
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/80061-why-atheists-angry.html
(u cannot possible read this whole rant; its in your weak christian nature/ jk ur probably a normal person that simply cannot take criticism; i hardly finished the whole thing myself)
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
That is one long rant. A lot of valid complaints in it - but man, it is l-o-n-g.
Heh... the "yoking" feature has been disabled in this version of the forum software.
And that verse was about marriage. Befriending <> marriage.
I have real difficulty seeing the rationale for the distinction you seem to be making between interacting with non-Christians here and being "forum friends" with them.
More likely it would be "I'm friends with a Christian, see they're not such bad people after all!"
Of course, you could also solve your dilemma by telling your new "friend" exactly what you think of him or her when you accept their request... though that might lead to not being friends very long.
Based on the sentiment you've expressed in this thread, I think it's safe to say that you've completely missed the point of the story of the Good Samaritan.
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
I'd say it's safe to say that he completely missed the point of the teachings of Christ, as a whole.
Waymarker
Member
Why should I want to be mates with any Jesus-rejecter?
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