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"Help us stop the IndoctriNation!"

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Also, "god explanations" can not be tested by the scientific method, and thus aren't science and therefore have no place in science class.

I'm cool with that. Let's apply this standard consistently though.

How can we test there was a big bang using a scientific method?

When we apply these tests, for it to be pure science should not the test results be conclusive or be discarded as well?
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
This one quote has me thinking. Sorry if I am not in the recent current taking place on the thread. And this probably is trivial now. But it does get me a wondering.

"I want to see a child in every public school in America who is trained as a witness for Jesus Christ."

What about the children of Jews or Hindus? Are they not American? Is that every child in America or just a child ( I'm pretty certain there is at least one of those in every school already )?

Once again, sorry. :p
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Most of science and "scientific facts", if you want to call them facts, but I don't believe that scientists use that term, is based on something that is observable and repeatable, so if there are speculations and presuppositions, they are validated by the experimental test. For example, nobody knows which way electricity flows, positive to negative, or negative to positive, but it doesn’t matter, electricity flows because we can test it by flipping on a light switch. The same thing with universal gravitation, we can test that. Scientists might not understand everything about gravitation, but we can test it with observable, repeatable experiments.

Not so with evolution. We can’t observe and repeat the beginning of the universe, earth and millions of years of evolution. We can’t observe and repeat the origins of man in a lab, at least not yet, if ever. Yes we can observe that creatures change and adapt to their environments and if you want to call that a “fact” then that is fine, I won’t argue against that. However the origin of man is forensic science, not observable and repeatable science.


I agree that some aspects of evolutionary biology (notably, the notion of common descent) is forensic science; but I don't think that's the problem. In fact, you narrow down what you perceive as the problem:

Man of Faith said:
Here is the problem. If there are gaps in what science can duplicate through observable and repeatable experimentation, such as the origins of man, it isn’t valid to say that a natural answer is the only possible answer. When people come out of school maintaining the position that evolution is a fact, and then calling creationists anti-science, then that is an obvious sign of indoctrination. What is anti-science about asking for science to follow the scientific method, by showing the observable part of man coming from some other creature? What we observe is what the Bible teaches, that there are clear seperations between organisms, so there are other valid alternative to evolution explanations as to how man got here.

As far as I'm aware, nobody asserts that evolutionary biology is the only "possible" answer. Given the evidence it's just (by far) the most likely. Creationists aren't labelled anti-science because they're skeptics of evolution -- nothing is wrong with that, in fact I'm glad for it and encourage it because it fosters interesting research to answer said skepticism.

Creationists are labelled anti-science because their skepticism approaches, borders on, and sometimes simply is, outright irrational. This is for many reasons that encompasses the whole "debate," but it essentially comes down to ignoring or downplaying evidence that spells out an interpretation that's beyond a reasonable doubt. Individual hypotheses of evolutionary histories are well within reason to doubt, but given all the evidence we've accumulated by the 21st century, it's totally unreasonable to throw up our arms and reject common descent altogether without some sort of powerful counter-justification. No such counter-justification has withstood pointed criticism.
 

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
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I agree that some aspects of evolutionary biology (notably, the notion of common descent) is forensic science; but I don't think that's the problem. In fact, you narrow down what you perceive as the problem:



As far as I'm aware, nobody asserts that evolutionary biology is the only "possible" answer. Given the evidence it's just (by far) the most likely. Creationists aren't labelled anti-science because they're skeptics of evolution -- nothing is wrong with that, in fact I'm glad for it and encourage it because it fosters interesting research to answer said skepticism.

Creationists are labelled anti-science because their skepticism approaches, borders on, and sometimes simply is, outright irrational. This is for many reasons that encompasses the whole "debate," but it essentially comes down to ignoring or downplaying evidence that spells out an interpretation that's beyond a reasonable doubt. Individual hypotheses of evolutionary histories are well within reason to doubt, but given all the evidence we've accumulated by the 21st century, it's totally unreasonable to throw up our arms and reject common descent altogether without some sort of powerful counter-justification. No such counter-justification has withstood pointed criticism.


The counter-justification as you put it, or alternative theory as I would put it, is labeled religion and dismissed outright, so it doesn't get a fair shake. Anything other than a naturalistic answer is labeled as religion and dismissed as unreasonable, even though Dawkins himself said he could live with aliens seeding the earth as a possible explanation.

Again, what we see in nature matches with the Bible says. It doesn't match millions of years of evolution from a common ancestor.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
The counter-justification as you put it, or alternative theory as I would put it, is labeled religion and dismissed outright, so it doesn't get a fair shake. Anything other than a naturalistic answer is labeled as religion and dismissed as unreasonable, even though Dawkins himself said he could live with aliens seeding the earth as a possible explanation.

Again, what we see in nature matches with the Bible says. It doesn't match millions of years of evolution from a common ancestor.

Because aliens would be a product of a natural world the same as us.


As to the Bible describing what we see, I could also say a traffic light turns green because of magic and it would describe it, that doesn't mean it describes it properly.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Anything other than a naturalistic answer is labeled as religion and dismissed as unreasonable, even though Dawkins himself said he could live with aliens seeding the earth as a possible explanation.

If you can't explain it using science then it isn't science. It's pseudoscience/superstition/religion. Now postulating "aliens", should they exist, would be describing the natural not the supernatural.

Again, what we see in nature matches with the Bible says.

Actually it doesn't. May be you can shed light, from your scriptural perspective, as to why human males (mammals) "some", not all, non-human males (mammals) have nipples. Evolution answers this quite nicely.

It doesn't match millions of years of evolution from a common ancestor.

Then you're purposely ignoring the evidence. So far I've seen nothing from you to refute the facts.
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
Most of science and "scientific facts", if you want to call them facts, but I don't believe that scientists use that term, is based on something that is observable and repeatable, so if there are speculations and presuppositions, they are validated by the experimental test. For example, nobody knows which way electricity flows, positive to negative, or negative to positive, but it doesn’t matter, electricity flows because we can test it by flipping on a light switch. The same thing with universal gravitation, we can test that. Scientists might not understand everything about gravitation, but we can test it with observable, repeatable experiments.

Not so with evolution. We can’t observe and repeat the beginning of the universe, earth and millions of years of evolution. We can’t observe and repeat the origins of man in a lab, at least not yet, if ever. Yes we can observe that creatures change and adapt to their environments and if you want to call that a “fact” then that is fine, I won’t argue against that. However the origin of man is forensic science, not observable and repeatable science.

Here is the problem. If there are gaps in what science can duplicate through observable and repeatable experimentation, such as the origins of man, it isn’t valid to say that a natural answer is the only possible answer. When people come out of school maintaining the position that evolution is a fact, and then calling creationists anti-science, then that is an obvious sign of indoctrination. What is anti-science about asking for science to follow the scientific method, by showing the observable part of man coming from some other creature? What we observe is what the Bible teaches, that there are clear seperations between organisms, so there are other valid alternative to evolution explanations as to how man got here.


We come out of the education system knowing that creationism is anti-scientific because your compatriots have thus far been totally unable to put forth a testable hypothesis, design a method of empirically verifying it or publish any findings supporting their claims. Nevertheless, despite their complete unwillingness to actually apply the scientific method, your leaders insist that religious mythology must be taught in a science class as a competing "theory".

I can't think of any more blatant effort to undermine science education than insisting that an untested religious mythology be taught as a competing world view to empirical naturalism in science class.

Maybe you don't see these efforts as "anti-scientific" because you don't know what science is. That only shows that science education in your country needs to be more rigorously skeptical of pseudo-science, not less.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
so there are other valid alternative to evolution explanations as to how man got here.

No there are not.

it all breaks down to magic, you have faith in a magic being snapping life into existance. BASED on ancient myths in which we know how they originated and when and why.

This creation myth is not valid in any sense. We know for a fact that what the ancients wrote about in their religion were not accurate and only based on what they didnt know.
 

tarekabdo12

Active Member
Everybody inculcates his ideas in children whether it favors religion or not as everyone thinks he is the righteous one. I think the only solution is to teach children also that not all what's said to them is always true and that when they grow they've to think and take harsh decisions.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Everybody inculcates his ideas in children whether it favors religion or not as everyone thinks he is the righteous one. I think the only solution is to teach children also that not all what's said to them is always true and that when they grow they've to think and take harsh decisions.


teaching children science in a classroom is not harsh


teaching them creation myths is outlawed.


evolution is taught in every major university around the world as higher learning.



what they are taught in school is the right and true thing to teach. PERIOD. If we did it your way no one would advance because they wouldnt have a valid stand on anything.
 
I am gonna say it bluntly to all the Theist our there: Teaching facts is not indoctrination!

Indoctrination is teaching something and not allowing to question if its is true.

Witch is EXACTLY what theist are doing! Its in your definition if Believe/Theist/Religion
Scientists can be criticized by any one, a student a bum a politician as long as they prove there point of course.
 
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