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Her name was Amber Nicole Thurman ...

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Then they're ignoring the church, aren't they? The Catholic Churches rules are designed to keep every fertile womb busy from menarche to menopause. Look at them altogether: The Catholic church forbids abortion, contraception, masturbation, homosexuality, and divorce, and encourages girls to marry when fertile and forbids them to withhold sex.
I am saddened by the fact - and I am a Catholic - that there are Catholics who take this medieval nonsense seriously and ruin their own lives...like having sex without contraception. I am a Catholic, I repeat it.

My position is that the church is a net harm to society, and that the more of its dogma one assimilates, the worse it is for him/her and his/her neighbors.
But if the Pope tells me to jump off a cliff, I won't do it.
It's not my fault that the gullible will do it.
Hundreds of millions of people are exposed to its teachings, and they are affected to varying degrees by it, but the ones that make the best neighbors and fellow citizens are the ones who reject the most of it such as your Italian neighbors that are apparently having sex for "the maximization of pleasure," which you say you don't condone. Neither does the church. But fortunately, they ignore it.
I have never met a Catholic woman who does what the Church tells her to do.
They all take the pill.
And I am really bothered by those women who don't take it and get pregnant on purpose.

I am on the hormonal pill. Frequent nausea, inappetence, migraine. They have to endure these things, as we all do.
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
You don't think that the anti-choice theocrats are responsible for that death, but rather, the physicians they terrified with their threat to revoke a medical license and incarcerate the physician for ten years are guilty of negligent homicide?

No argument has merit to theocratic, anti-choice Christians, which was a point I suggested in my post preceding this one. Look at how you framed this. The most heartbreaking of cases don't faze you at all. You exhibit zero interest in any aspect of this but to keep abortion criminalized, to blame the physicians for what the Christians have done to intimidate them, that no number of horrible outcomes matter to you, that pro-choice advocates are merely tugging at heartstrings with stories that don't touch your heart at all, and that none of that has any merit to you.

There are good Christians, but they're the ones who reject most of the dogma other than a god belief, and who don't really accept the Christian god's bigotries or the church's instructions on who to hate and who to disempower using the force of government.

More than that. This young woman lost her life.

My humanist values tell me that how those women choose to live is their business, not yours or mine, and not the Christian church's. They don't need to be abstinent to please you or anybody else, and seeking sexual pleasure with a consenting adult is not immoral nor does it deserve to result in an unwanted pregnancy to please Christian and Muslim theocrats.

These women don't ask you to have sex the way they do, which might be outside of marriage, which might involve a series of partners, which might result in an unwanted pregnancy, and might result in an abortion (hopefully, a safe, legal, and accessible one, but maybe an unsafe and illegal one if the other is not available to them), but you insist that they live according to your Christian beliefs.

All pregnancies wanted or unwanted are the result in inadequate contraception.

But let's see if we can get an answer to your question:

The following is a 2021 American statistic from Rape-related pregnancy: estimates and descriptive characteristics from a national sample of women - PubMed : "among adult women an estimated 32,101 pregnancies result from rape each year."

I had trouble finding recent data on pregnancy and birth rates, the rates of each falling considerably since this 2003 report at Pregnancy rates for U.S. women continue to drop - PubMed: "The estimated number of pregnancies dropped to 6,369,000 (4,131,000 live births, 1,152,000 induced abortions, and 1,087,000 fetal losses)."

This comes from the first link, and doesn't include fertile women 25 and older: "In 2017, pregnancy rates for women aged 24 or younger reached their lowest recorded levels. These rates continue a longstanding decline in pregnancy rates among people aged 24 or younger, which started in the late 1980s. In 2017, there were 14 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 15–17 (down from a peak of 75 in 1989), 57 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 18–19 (from a peak of 175 in 1991) and 111 pregnancies per 1,000 women aged 20–24 (from a peak of 202 in 1990)."

So how do we combine these numbers to get you an answer? Let's go with 32,000 pregnancies from rape out of fewer than 6.4 million pregnancies - let's use 2/3 of that second number, since it's 2003 data, and it looks like these numbers fell about 50% between 1990 and now, 2003 coming at about 1/3 of that that time with 2/3 of it yet to come, or about total annual 4.3 million pregnancies.

32000 / 4600000 = about 0.007 or 0.7 percent, which is about 1 in 140.

Then they're ignoring the church, aren't they? The Catholic Churches rules are designed to keep every fertile womb busy from menarche to menopause. Look at them altogether: The Catholic church forbids abortion, contraception, masturbation, homosexuality, and divorce, and encourages girls to marry when fertile and forbids them to withhold sex.

My position is that the church is a net harm to society, and that the more of its dogma one assimilates, the worse it is for him/her and his/her neighbors. Hundreds of millions of people are exposed to its teachings, and they are affected to varying degrees by it, but the ones that make the best neighbors and fellow citizens are the ones who reject the most of it such as your Italian neighbors that are apparently having sex for "the maximization of pleasure," which you say you don't condone. Neither does the church. But fortunately, they ignore it.

Woah brother, that is quite the post!

Is it true or not that in that state the mother - since her life was in danger - should have immediately been given medical attention?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Is it true or not that in that state the mother - since her life was in danger - should have immediately been given medical attention?
You think and say so, I think and say so. Why can't the lawmakers say so, in a clear and unconditional way?

Do we agree, that when a physician finds a patient to be in danger, she should immediately give the necessary help - without being threatened with losing her licence and being imprisoned for ten years?
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
You think and say so, I think and say so. Why can't the lawmakers say so, in a clear and unconditional way?

Do we agree, that when a physician finds a patient to be in danger, she should immediately give the necessary help - without being threatened with losing her licence and being imprisoned for ten years?

Yes we agree and that article I linked to is saying that the law in that state does just that. Whether she was given the care is the issue - hence the charge that this was medical malpractice, not an issue with the law.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I've seen her. She's okay.

I live in Canada. The ugly women here are beautiful.
Ever seen a Canuckistanian 10?
R.aa8a5dbcef5da9cef13a75fea1d03ff8
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Yes we agree and that article I linked to is saying that the law in that state does just that. Whether she was given the care is the issue - hence the charge that this was medical malpractice, not an issue with the law.

Can you specify how you know that? With a quote where you have read that?
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
From ProPublica:

In her final hours, Amber Nicole Thurman suffered from a grave infection that her suburban Atlanta hospital was well-equipped to treat.​
She’d taken abortion pills and encountered a rare complication; she had not expelled all of the fetal tissue from her body. She showed up at Piedmont Henry Hospital in need of a routine procedure to clear it from her uterus, called a dilation and curettage, or D&C.​
But just that summer, her state had made performing the procedure a felony, with few exceptions. Any doctor who violated the new Georgia law could be prosecuted and face up to a decade in prison.​
Thurman waited in pain in a hospital bed, worried about what would happen to her 6-year-old son, as doctors monitored her infection spreading, her blood pressure sinking and her organs beginning to fail.​
It took 20 hours for doctors to finally operate. By then, it was too late.​

Elections have consequences ...
I understand where you are going with this. I can do the same thing for the rapes and deaths caused by illegal immigrants. We can give the name of young girls, who were victims of rape and death. But unlike your example, there was nothing these young naive girls could do or could have done, proactively, to prevent their fate. Abortion has more options up front such birth control pills.

You cannot go to another state to be safe, since Biden and Harris have illegal immigrants everywhere, some of which are predators. It all can be traced back to the wide open border and no vetting of those who are allowed to enter. Elections have consequences. This is an even more scary scenario added by border Czar Harris.

Honestly I can't understand how she could afford abortion pills, but couldn't afford a package of Yasminelle.
Hormonal pills.

This really shocks me. We all take hormonal pills... and despite some side effect, we are alive.

I am sorry...but I cannot empathize. Birth control is infinitely much cheaper than abortion pills.
If one is walking and is attacked by a predator, there is no hormone pill to take before going out, to make it go away. Harris did not think this through and now appears callous to genuine suffering, beyond one's control, caused by the open borders. The are 300,000 migrant children who went alone, without parents, who are now not accounted for. That is another pitfall of open borders forced on US by the current Administration. If Trump had been President ,those 300, 000 missing children would still be home with parents, and not lured with candy.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
that is quite the post!
I understand why you might not like reading opinions like that, but shouldn't you have tried to rebut it if you disagreed for intellectual reasons rather than it being unflattering?

I feel very strongly about such matters and the harm Christianity is doing in America. I think my argument is sound, which may be why nobody tries to rebut it.
Is it true or not that in that state the mother - since her life was in danger - should have immediately been given medical attention?
She should have received medical attention anywhere, but you can't expect the obstetricians in Georgia to risk their licenses and their freedom, nor should they be asked to.
Yes we agree and that article I linked to is saying that the law in that state does just that. Whether she was given the care is the issue - hence the charge that this was medical malpractice, not an issue with the law.
What is it you don't get about the fact that the physicians have been intimidated by the lawmakers in Georgia, who clearly mean to punish them for defying their theocratic objectives? Why do you keep trying to shift the blame for this on them because of meaningless words that give lip service to exemptions with no clear guidelines or protections for the physicians?

Not one health care provider qualified to do that D&C and aware of her plight was willing to risk their licenses and freedom, and you describe that a malpractice and negligence. You're willing to say that he entire OB department in her and neighboring hospitals and clinics are guilty of malpractice than blame the cause of this situation, which didn't exist before Dobbs.

This is what I'm referring to about how this religion deforms morality once one begins accepting what it teaches about who to hate and who to disempower to please its deity. I am convinced that had you been raised outside of that religion, you would have some empathy for the pregnant women and the obstetricians of Georgia, but you don't. It has been removed from you.

And that's why I write what I do about it. I'm correct. You're another example of how a person who accepts that dogma is harmed by it, becomes willing to harm his neighbors, and sees it as moral behavior because he believes what he considers a loving god to be its author.

You might be a friendly, kind, charitable, and helpful person in the other aspects of your life, but not in this one. And if you are some or all of those good things, it's not because of your religion. It's despite it. That describes the typical humanist as well, but WITH the empathy for pregnant women and their physicians that your religion has removed from you in service of its theocratic agenda.

Did you want to offer a counterargument that attempts to falsify any of that? Like I said, if you think that you can rebut that, please do.

I'm a retired physician, but not an obstetrician. If I had been an obstetrician in Georgia, I'd be leaving or gone. The Christians have ruined that state for them and their patients, all of which ought to move out of Gilead for a free state.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I understand where you are going with this. I can do the same thing for the rapes and deaths caused by illegal immigrants. We can give the name of young girls, who were victims of rape and death. But unlike your example, there was nothing these young naive girls could do or could have done, proactively, to prevent their fate. Abortion has more options up front such birth control pills.

You cannot go to another state to be safe, since Biden and Harris have illegal immigrants everywhere, some of which are predators. It all can be traced back to the wide open border and no vetting of those who are allowed to enter. Elections have consequences. This is an even more scary scenario added by border Czar Harris.


If one is walking and is attacked by a predator, there is no hormone pill to take before going out, to make it go away. Harris did not think this through and now appears callous to genuine suffering, beyond one's control, caused by the open borders. The are 300,000 migrant children who went alone, without parents, who are now not accounted for. That is another pitfall of open borders forced on US by the current Administration. If Trump had been President ,those 300, 000 missing children would still be home with parents, and not lured with candy.
WTH are you talking about?
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Woah brother, that is quite the post!

Is it true or not that in that state the mother - since her life was in danger - should have immediately been given medical attention?
And because of fear of the laws recently passed was not (if not in this instance, Google is your friend). Passing the buck is disingenuous.
 
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