"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[SkepticThinker]

As a followup question: Does it mean anything to you that the links I've provided (several times), are loaded with factual, falsifiable claims?

I've seen you claim that repeatedly.

 

[Revoltingest]

That said as far as "punching down", trans women are biological men, so there's that.

Excellent example of punching down.
This isn't some mere technical argument
about biology. It bespeaks hostility & abuse.

 

[icehorse]

Which to return to this, your proposed "trans pronouns" is a flawed and ineffective "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist, because you're tying to assign gender pronouns to how you identify biological sex, which childishly and simplistically reduces biological sex to reproductive organs. Stemming from your conflation of gender, )which is a social construct and how one mentally views themselves and socially presents) and the still-not-so-binary issue of biological sex.

Again, why would establishing trans pronouns be bad for trans people?

Answer that, and I'll respond to what you just said...

 

[icehorse]

I've seen you claim that repeatedly.

Well yes indeed. If you continue to conflate the message with the messenger, I will continue to mention the power of factual claims.

So let's zoom out for a moment and pause this trans debate for a post or two...

IN GENERAL, do you place value on factual, falsifiable claims?

 

[icehorse]

Excellent example of punching down.
This isn't some mere technical argument
about biology. It bespeaks hostility & abuse.

In what way is that punching down?

(Please, please, please, tell me all about intersectionality )

 

[Revoltingest]

In what way is that punching down?

It's an attack on a group of people
who've done you no wrong, & endure
attacks legal, physical, & social.

(Please, please, please, tell me all about intersectionality )

That's not a term I use.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Again, why would establishing trans pronouns be bad for trans people?

Answer that, and I'll respond to what you just said...

It's literally answered in the segment that you quoted.

Also, remember when you asked me where and how you're denying someone's being? Remember this?

How have I denied anyone's being?

Right here.

when a trans woman wants to go to a women's prison or compete against women in sports, that MAN is punching down, it's abhorrent.

I would fear for a trans man punching up, but it would be her choice.

This also flows counterintuitive to your application of gendered pronouns (she, her, he, him) being biological monikers when you're here using transwoman and transman. There already exists the biological suffix indicator of trans-, thus we do not need this ridiculous "Trans Pronoun" non-solution.

People are built differently. We don't need to understand it, we just need to accept it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Again, why would establishing trans pronouns be bad for trans people?

Answer that, and I'll respond to what you just said...

It was explained in the post you were responding to.

 

[icehorse]

I am talking about your supposed examples of the things you listed, to which I referred in my last post.

right. You seem to think that if you haven't heard of a thing it doesn't exist. So again, can you please wish away trump?

 

[icehorse]

You seem to want special pronouns, as some sort of way to call them out or something.

Bad men are taking advantage of poorly thought out pronoun "solutions". Yes, I want to make it harder for those bad men to abuse women.

And again, why would trans-specific pronouns be a bad thing for trans people?

==

And back to the other conversational thread we have going:

Do you value factual claims?

 

[icehorse]

It's an attack on a group of people
who've done you no wrong, & endure
attacks legal, physical, & social.

Show me evidence of how bad men who invade women's safe spaces are so put upon, how much they have to endure...

 

[icehorse]

Which to return to this, your proposed "trans pronouns" is a flawed and ineffective "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist, because you're tying to assign gender pronouns to how you identify biological sex, which childishly and simplistically reduces biological sex to reproductive organs. Stemming from your conflation of gender, )which is a social construct and how one mentally views themselves and socially presents) and the still-not-so-binary issue of biological sex.

It's literally answered in the segment that you quoted.

Also, remember when you asked me where and how you're denying someone's being? Remember this?

I'm assuming the first quote above is the answer you're referring to? (Next time providing a post # would be useful.)

Sex is 99.999% binary. For all practical purposes, sex is binary. And when it comes to women's rights to safety, sports, and privacy, sex matters much more than a person's "gender identity".

So again, how would trans-specific pronouns hurt trans people? I think it would help because currently trans activists are demanding that people lie, and that's never going to be a good solution.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Show me evidence of how bad men who invade women's safe spaces

Show us that there are "bad men" - specifically "bad men pretending to be women" from your Bigot's Playbook - who are invading women's safe spaces.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I'm assuming the first quote above is the answer you're referring to? (Next time providing a post # would be useful.)

Don't be obtuse. You literally quoted the answer you're sealioning for.

Sex is 99.999% binary. For all practical purposes, sex is binary.

Biological science disagree with your simplistic genital-based perspective.

I think it would help because currently trans activists are demanding that people lie

No, we're not.

 

[icehorse]

Don't be obtuse. You literally quoted the answer you're sealioning for.

i have no idea what you're talking about. I'm happy to review this, but please quote specific post #s so that we're not wasting each other's time, thanks.

Biological science disagree with your simplistic genital-based perspective.

Your words, not mine. There are THOUSANDS of biological differences between the sexes in EVERY CELL of the body.

Try as you might, you CANNOT change your sex, sex is baked in at the cellular level. Of course surgeons with dubious ethics can hack away creating fake genitalia. But these fakes don't really work and they inflict a lifetime of medical interventions on the patients.

No, we're not.

To say "a trans woman is a woman" is a lie. What on earth is wrong with calling trans women, trans women? It's honest. It's not confusing.

 

[Alien826]

This 5 minute video on the subject is an interesting view which incorporates facts and not just opinion.

This is interesting. What am I to make of it?

It's apparent that this particular person is firmly on one side of the question. Fair enough. What I took from it, which she may not have intended, is that current medical opinion is divided on the matter. Again fair enough. Medical history is littered with bad treatments that were firmly believed to be good and of course the reverse. In the end, they get settled, and the "best" answer is found.

So what is my conclusion? That the ultimate answers must come from doctors, not politicians, religious leaders, or people like me, sitting at my keyboard.

 

[SkepticThinker]

right. You seem to think that if you haven't heard of a thing it doesn't exist. So again, can you please wish away trump?

No. Stop just saying that over and over. It's tired. And not anything I've said nor alluded to.

You make claims, you back them up, It's not other peoples' failings that they can't find verifiable sources for YOUR claims. To me, that means your claims are bogus unless you can show them to be true.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Show me evidence of how bad men who invade women's safe spaces are so put upon, how much they have to endure...

I don't think you've shown anywhere that it's any kind of widespread/growing/trending problem that "bad men" are invading "women's safe spaces."

A few anecdotes do not a case make.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes you do.

There are THOUSANDS of biological differences between the sexes in EVERY CELL of the body.

And still yet, biological sex is not binary.

To say "a trans woman is a woman" is a lie.

No, it's not.

What on earth is wrong with calling trans women, trans women?

Nothing. But when you sit there and call a transman a woman, or refer to a transwoman as a MAN and use those gendered pronouns, you are being bigoted and here hypocritical.

 

[Yerda]

Forgive me if I've given you this answer before:

In general in society we applaud when people "punch up" and we abhor when people "punch down". For example, we applaud the young chess master who can compete against adults, that kid is "punching up". But we would abhor it if a large college student wanted to play on a junior high school football team, he'd be "punching down".

Much of my argument is focused on women's safety. In general women are smaller and not as strong as men. So when a trans woman wants to go to a women's prison or compete against women in sports, that MAN is punching down, it's abhorrent.

So your question is a punching up question. I would fear for a trans man punching up, but it would be her choice. As for it being appropriate, meh. I think adding confusion is not a great idea, even when punching up.

Thanks for answering. I guess, for me, this is not the most useful way to frame the use of pronouns.

Regardless of how we choose to separate people in prisons and sports, the use of pronouns that match gender identity seems appropriate to me, as well as more respectful. My gut feeling is that calling a trans woman a man and referring to a trans man as she is unkind as well as inaccurate. However, I can see that the root of disagreement though is in how we understand the pronouns. For me, the existence of trans people is enough to determine that pronouns don't map perfectly to genetics.