"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[Alien826]

Again, why would establishing trans pronouns be bad for trans people?

Answer that, and I'll respond to what you just said...

Not addressed to me, but I've been thinking about it. Attempting to put myself in the place of a trans woman pre treatment*, I assume I feel like a woman trapped in a man's body. I'm really and truly in every way that matters to me, a woman. If I had a magic wand, I would change myself totally into a "real" woman, DNA and all.

So, given the impossibility of that, what's the best I can hope for? To be accepted and treated as a woman in every way. That would not include having something applied to me (pronouns in this case) that forever identify me as some kind of weird halfway being. There's the harm, imo.

(*I admit I'm groping in the dark here, and welcome correction by anyone with direct experience).

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm assuming the first quote above is the answer you're referring to? (Next time providing a post # would be useful.)

Sex is 99.999% binary. For all practical purposes, sex is binary. And when it comes to women's rights to safety, sports, and privacy, sex matters much more than a person's "gender identity".

So again, how would trans-specific pronouns hurt trans people? I think it would help because currently trans activists are demanding that people lie, and that's never going to be a good solution.

 

[icehorse]

This is interesting. What am I to make of it?

It's apparent that this particular person is firmly on one side of the question. Fair enough. What I took from it, which she may not have intended, is that current medical opinion is divided on the matter. Again fair enough. Medical history is littered with bad treatments that were firmly believed to be good and of course the reverse. In the end, they get settled, and the "best" answer is found.

So what is my conclusion? That the ultimate answers must come from doctors, not politicians, religious leaders, or people like me, sitting at my keyboard.

Yup. But sometimes doctors get corrupted. So it's more than fair to ask for high quality evidence, especially when the "treatments" are so, so dangerous. The meta studies I've read all conclude that the evidence supporting trans medicine is of very low quality.

 

[Revoltingest]

Show me evidence of how bad men who invade women's safe spaces are so put upon, how much they have to endure...

Your hypothetical doesn't represent
the issues that trans folk face.

 

[icehorse]

Ok...

first, please summarize this 30 minute video.

second - i watched the first minute and he made several illogical arguments.

Now, go read the article from the Finnish doctor.

 

[icehorse]

Your hypothetical doesn't represent
the issues that trans folk face.

It represents the issues that women face. In your mind, are trans people more important than women?

 

[Revoltingest]

It represents the issues that women face. In your mind, are trans people more important than women?

No.
The needs of both should be accommodated.
But real needs...not the imagined unreal kind.

 

[icehorse]

Not addressed to me, but I've been thinking about it. Attempting to put myself in the place of a trans woman pre treatment*, I assume I feel like a woman trapped in a man's body. I'm really and truly in every way that matters to me, a woman. If I had a magic wand, I would change myself totally into a "real" woman, DNA and all.

So, given the impossibility of that, what's the best I can hope for? To be accepted and treated as a woman in every way. That would not include having something applied to me (pronouns in this case) that forever identify me as some kind of weird halfway being. There's the harm, imo.

(*I admit I'm groping in the dark here, and welcome correction by anyone with direct experience).

I continue to appreciate your thoughtfulness!

To oversimplify a bit, in the old days, most trans women wanted to look like women, to fit in. That's still true, sometimes. But these days a lot of trans women make no efforts to look like women, and some state their explicit goal is to shock people. E.g. men in dresses with full beards. It's called gender f#@k. (if you search for it, be prepared)

As for the "halfway being", hmmm. There are countless mental conditions. If someone has ADHD, or PTSD, or autism, or... we say so. Transgenderism is a mental condition. It doesn't diminish the seriousness of it to say so.

Here's a video. It's meant to be funny, but it's also a bit cautionary concerning some of the unexpected, problematic consequences of trying to warp reality via pronouns:

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

A huge issue with perspective here is that horse is hanging "women" entirely on the hanger of ciswomen, while simultaneously invalidating transwomen. Which completely blows past that in an everyday social setting, transwomen face the issues of both transpeople and many of the same as women.

This whole "safe space" issue is a fabrication misdirection. We know it's not about the bathrooms, if it was then Nex would still be alive. But it's not. It's about devaluing and dehumanizing trans lives.

 

[icehorse]

No.
The needs of both should be accommodated.
But real needs...not the imagined unreal kind.

So... if you haven't heard of it, then it's imaginary?

Can you tell us how you come to know everything?

 

[icehorse]

A huge issue with perspective here is that horse is hanging "women" entirely on the hanger of ciswomen, while simultaneously invalidating transwomen. Which completely blows past that in an everyday social setting, transwomen face the issues of both transpeople and many of the same as women.

This whole "safe space" issue is a fabrication misdirection. We know it's not about the bathrooms, if it was then Nex would still be alive. But it's not. It's about devaluing and dehumanizing trans lives.

"cis" is one of those words with fluid definitions. Please tell us how you're using "cis"? thanks.

 

[Revoltingest]

A huge issue with perspective here is that horse is hanging "women" entirely on the hanger of ciswomen, while simultaneously invalidating transwomen. Which completely blows past that in an everyday social setting, transwomen face the issues of both transpeople and many of the same as women.

This whole "safe space" issue is a fabrication misdirection. We know it's not about the bathrooms, if it was then Nex would still be alive. But it's not. It's about devaluing and dehumanizing trans lives.

Add to this his treating the rare & the hypothetical
as mainstream & common, thereby being the full picture.

 

[Revoltingest]

So... if you haven't heard of it, then it's imaginary?
Can you tell us how you come to know everything?

You're bringing too much personal baggage
to my simple statements. Take a deep breath.
Re-read the post. Try again.

 

[icehorse]

You're bringing too much personal baggage
to my simple statements. Take a deep breath.
Re-read the post. Try again.

So when you said:

"But real needs...not the imagined unreal kind."

What did you mean?

 

[Revoltingest]

So when you said:

"But real needs...not the imagined unreal kind."

What did you mean?

Now that's better.
One oft cited problem is trans women
disrupting TERF meetings. This is an
imagined problem.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

"cis" is one of those words with fluid definitions. Please tell us how you're using "cis"? thanks.

I am not entertaining sealioning, horse. Figure it out.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ok...

first, please summarize this 30 minute video.

second - i watched the first minute and he made several illogical arguments.

Now, go read the article from the Finnish doctor.

He explains how and why sex isn't binary, among other common misconceptions.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So... if you haven't heard of it, then it's imaginary?

Can you tell us how you come to know everything?

You've yet to show it's a major problem that women are facing.

 

[Revoltingest]

You've yet to show it's a major problem that women are facing.

Now you'll be accused of "sealioning".
(Someone's favorite term to duck evidence.)

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Mhmm. Do you know what sealioning is, revolting? I'd advise looking it up.