"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[icehorse]

I read the link you gave. It appears that it where the vast majority of your arguments and talking points have been taken from, and as such, have already been addressed repeatedly on these threads.

Concerning GAC, I have provided many links. As a courtesy I narrowed it down to the one interview with the Finnish doctor. The other links are consistent with what she said. I do not recall anyone directly addressing her claims.

==

At this point there are well over 1,100 posts on this thread. As is always the case, there are several lines of debate occurring simultaneously. As I recall we have:

1 - A debate concerning pronouns
2 - A debate concerning biological sex and whether society should treat it as binary
3 - A debate concerning whether GAC is good or bad for kids with GD
4 - A discussion of gender roles

There are probably others.

I think these are important topics, and given the length of the thread, it would appear that others also think it's important.

I'm requesting that we set context going forward when we post here, as I did at the beginning of this post. I made it clear that I was responding to the GAC discussion. thanks.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Society runs on the idea that most of the time a person is either male or female. Our healthcare systems are designed around this idea. Keeping women safe is designed around this idea. Allowing women to compete more fairly in sports is designed around this idea. None of these are perfect solutions, but most of the time they work.

It sounds like your paradigm functions on this.

Healthcare is designed around what is best for the individual (including intersex persons).

"Keeping women safe" is not a "function of society", but rather a campaigning slogan used to push ideologies and goals. It's something that's amorphous and cannot be isolated or pinned down definitively. Like the sports argument.

And then how are you going to end with "it doesn't always work, but sometimes..." as though that justifies bigotry?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not my point, I'm responding to the video. Again, I'm happy to use an example of a socially constructed gender role. Can you provide an example that you are happy with? The reason I'm asking is because at this moment we're discussing the video. thanks.

Men are supposed to keep their emotions bottled up, while it's expected that women are overly emotional beings.
Girls are supposed to play with dolls while boys are supposed to play with trucks.
Men go to work to support the family while women stay home and clean house and raise the kids.

 

[LadyJane]

"Her penis" is going to send shockwaves that reverberate through time that confuses future generations to the point they won't know how to reproduce (doublegood win for BB).

The incendiary thread titles are meant to attract attention. Like a Dunk Tank.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Concerning GAC, I have provided many links. As a courtesy I narrowed it down to the one interview with the Finnish doctor. The other links are consistent with what she said. I do not recall anyone directly addressing her claims.

==

At this point there are well over 1,100 posts on this thread. As is always the case, there are several lines of debate occurring simultaneously. As I recall we have:

1 - A debate concerning pronouns
2 - A debate concerning biological sex and whether society should treat it as binary
3 - A debate concerning whether GAC is good or bad for kids with GD
4 - A discussion of gender roles

There are probably others.

I think these are important topics, and given the length of the thread, it would appear that others also think it's important.

I'm requesting that we set context going forward when we post here, as I did at the beginning of this post. I made it clear that I was responding to the GAC discussion. thanks.

That's the one I'm talking about: The interview with the FInnish doctor that you've asked me to read.

 

[icehorse]

Men are supposed to keep their emotions bottled up, while it's expected that women are overly emotional beings.
Girls are supposed to play with dolls while boys are supposed to play with trucks.
Men go to work to support the family while women stay home and clean house and raise the kids.

Fantastic examples, thanks.

Okay the guy in the video said:

"Gender is how an individual organism expresses their sexual identity in a cultural context".

Do you think that any of your examples from above are individuals expressing their sexual identity? I don't.

 

[icehorse]

That's the one I'm talking about: The interview with the FInnish doctor that you've asked me to read.

Thanks for clarifying! I think in this exchange we're debates GAC drugs?

I can't recall if you're participating in the newish thread in European politics concerning the fact that the NHS has decided to mostly ban the use of puberty blockers?

To summarize, when we're talking about GAC - specifically about drugs and surgeries - the links I provided in that thread are consistent with the points I've been making and also consistent with the two links, which I'll supply again, below.

These two links provide a lot of new evidence to support my claims that GAC drugs and surgeries amount to bad science and bad medicine at this point in time:

Interim report – Cass Review

The WPATH Files — Environmental Progress

Just in case I've got the context wrong, if we were talking about the idea that a LOT of kids with GD work thru it naturally, and a lot of those kids ending knowing that they're gay, that's one of the claims the Finnish doctor made, after a decade of work and consultation with GD doctors across many countries.

 

[icehorse]

The incendiary thread titles are meant to attract attention. Like a Dunk Tank.

I suspect you haven't read all 1100+ posts in this thread, no worries.

So to review, a woman is raped by an intact trans woman. In the courtroom, the victim is on the stand, and the rapist's lawyer is doing what lawyers do and attacking the victim. The victim says "he raped me". The lawyer says "that's transphobic, you mean "she" raped you?". The victim says "he raped me with his penis!". The lawyer says, "again with the transphobia, you mean "she raped you with her penis?".

Does that exchange sound at all misogynistic to you?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The incendiary thread titles are meant to attract attention. Like a Dunk Tank.

True. The sad thing is all the people who agree with the premise that trans-related terms are Orwellian and making it clear they have never read Orwell, they do not understand what they mean is Newspeak, they don't understand the ourpose if Newspeak, nor do they understand how fundamentally flawed and wrong their conclusion is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Does that exchange sound at all misogynistic to you?

By your standards all you have to do is disagree with you, even if its cis-women who disagree with you, to be labeled a misogynist.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Fantastic examples, thanks.

Okay the guy in the video said:

"Gender is how an individual organism expresses their sexual identity in a cultural context".

Do you think that any of your examples from above are individuals expressing their sexual identity? I don't.

Examples of that would be:
Women have long hair, men have short hair.
Women wear dresses, men wear pants.

 

[icehorse]

Examples of that would be:
Women have long hair, men have short hair.
Women wear dresses, men wear pants.

To me, none of these examples express sexual identity. These are all ambiguous when trying to express sexual identity.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Do you think that any of your examples from above are individuals expressing their sexual identity? I don't.

But you think that climbing trees and participating in sports is?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

To me, none of these examples express sexual identity. These are all ambiguous when trying to express sexual identity.

To this, I have a direct challenge for you. Which of these individuals has a penis?

 

[SkepticThinker]

To me, none of these examples express sexual identity. These are all ambiguous when trying to express sexual identity.

But you think that tree climbing is??

 

[icehorse]

But you think that tree climbing is??

I've offered several possible examples, none of which I'm invested in. I have asked - repeatedly - for an example or two that your cohort thinks is valid...

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

We're back on this, huh?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I've offered several possible examples, none of which I'm invested in. I have asked - repeatedly - for an example or two that your cohort thinks is valid...

Do you think tree climbing is an example of what you're looking for?
If so, how?

I gave you several examples. You dismissed all of them.

So let's analyze your example.

 

[icehorse]

Do you think tree climbing is an example of what you're looking for?
If so, how?

I gave you several examples. You dismissed all of them.

So let's analyze your example.

And earlier you said:

"Examples of that would be:
Women have long hair, men have short hair.
Women wear dresses, men wear pants."

I told you I didn't think your examples expressed sexual identity. Do you think they do? I would agree that your claims are statistically true. And perhaps those are good examples of stereotypes. But I'm criticizing the claim made in the video you provided. Again, the guy in the video said:

"Gender is how an individual organism expresses their sexual identity in a cultural context".

To me, your examples are ambiguous. For example if a woman has long hair that tells us nothing about her sexual identity, correct? She could be straight, gay, bi, we do not know.

Do you think your examples fit the "sexual identity" definition? If so, how?

 

[SkepticThinker]

And earlier you said:

"Examples of that would be:
Women have long hair, men have short hair.
Women wear dresses, men wear pants."

I told you I didn't think your examples expressed sexual identity. Do you think they do? I would agree that your claims are statistically true. And perhaps those are good examples of stereotypes. But I'm criticizing the claim made in the video you provided. Again, the guy in the video said:

"Gender is how an individual organism expresses their sexual identity in a cultural context".

To me, your examples are ambiguous. For example if a woman has long hair that tells us nothing about her sexual identity, correct? She could be straight, gay, bi, we do not know.

Do you think your examples fit the "sexual identity" definition? If so, how?

I think my examples fit with what Forest said in the video. Can you explain why don't?
And can you explain why you think a "tomboy" climbing a tree is an example of this?

Traditionally, women have worn their hair longer, and men have worn their hair shorter. Those have been part of the gender identities found in our culture. Remember when everyone was all upset that the Beatles had "long hair?" Why do you think that was?

Similarly, it's been traditional for girls to express themselves wearing pink, and for boys to express their gender identity by wearing blue. Boys who have worn pink have been traditionally views as "girly" types in our society (thankfully that is changing).

Those things are recognized in our cultures as "things girls do" and "things boys do."


Notice how your example of gender identity was for a "tomboy" to climb a tree. Would that be because traditionally, our culture views boys as the ones who climb trees, perhaps?