"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[Shadow Wolf]

pick one and let's dig into it. otherwise, stop disrupting the conversation.

And while you're at it, skim through the docs I just linked to in post #1118. Those docs back up what I've been saying all along.

I don't play by your rules. There is no "one and only one at a time" rule. When multiple accusations come your way what you do is address each one, one at a time, and what you don't do is lock up to make up debate etiquette.
And I've already shown where you're sources are wrong. You keep reporting lies, keep citing obviously biased sources, and what we've seen from you here is an ongoing effort of shifting goal posts and actual strawmaning to dismiss everyone who doesn't agree with you as a woke activist.

 

[icehorse]

I don't play by your rules. There is no "one and only one at a time" rule. When multiple accusations come your way what you do is address each one, one at a time, and what you don't do is lock up to make up debate etiquette.
And I've already shown where you're sources are wrong. You keep reporting lies, keep citing obviously biased sources, and what we've seen from you here is an ongoing effort of shifting goal posts and actual strawmaning to dismiss everyone who doesn't agree with you as a woke activist.

your baseless accusations are noted.

So, what are your thoughts about the documents I just provided?

They come from WPATH, are you going to say that WPATH is a biased source?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

There are over 1100 posts on this thread. I will respond to your request if you point me to exactly what you're talking about. I still don't know what you mean when you say "THE SEGMENT"?

The lengths to which you expect me to hold your hand is absolutely ridiculous. Go back to post 1,105 and read carefully.

Thousands of kids have been given puberty blockers and/or hormones, correct?

No. 1,390 adolescents diagnosed with gender dysphoria (of an undisclosed age percentage, also important) were given blockers. Of 42,167.

What part of my claims about how medicine ought to work do you disagree with? Do no harm, are you okay with that principle?

Talk about a strawman. If you're going to play at providing a diagnosis, then provide your credentials. Until you can do that, then as I said in post 1,108 neither of us are qualified to provide medical advice or prescriptions. Even for a hypothetical person.

This aspect of dealing with GD is not rocket science.

Correct, it is medical science.

Most kids with GD are not trans.

Citation needed.

Here's a link to a recent report.

From a noted anti-transgender, conservative "think tank." You might as well cite FOX News.

I gave you a sports example. It shows women's rights to fair competitions are being curtailed. There are other ways in which women's rights are being curtailed, but it's not up to me to educate you.

There is no right to "fair competition" in regards to your complaints. It is a bogus smoke screen.

And yes, you do have the responsibility to elaborate on which rights your believe are being curtailed or endangered, as you're the one making that claim. If all you've got is that a transwoman was more skilled than her competition, then that's really damn pathetic.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

your baseless accusations are noted.

So, what are your thoughts about the documents I just provided?

They come from WPATH, are you going to say that WPATH is a biased source?

I didn't see them and doubt their accuracy and honesty (in regards to anything from them that agrees with you) as unlike you I have read things from WPATH.

 

[icehorse]

The lengths to which you expect me to hold your hand is absolutely ridiculous. Go back to post 1,105 and read carefully.

Let's cut each other a little slack here. I frequently provide post #s to other posters, and I frequently re-post links.

So I went back to #1105 and I reread it a couple of times, and I still don't know what you mean when you say "THE SEGMENT"? Are you referring to the link you provided that's repeated in #1105 from the Mayo clinic? That link has to do with whether GAC drugs are safe. So, if we want to start discussing GAD drug safety issues, we can, just let me know.

No. 1,390 adolescents diagnosed with gender dysphoria (of an undisclosed age percentage, also important) were given blockers. Of 42,167.

Here's the link again (see how easy this is ):

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/

To summarize the report above, in the US alone, between 2017 and 2021:

~4800 kids were given puberty blockers
~14,500 kids were given hormones

And between 2019-2021, there were over 700 "top" surgeries, you know, when they cut off healthy breasts.

Correct, it is medical science.

What part of "first do no harm" do you disagree with or not understand?

Citation needed.

This is in reference to my claim that most GD kids are gay, not trans. These citations have already been provided several times in this thread.

From a noted anti-transgender, conservative "think tank."

As I've said before, trans gender medicine is a highly politicized topic. These days it's hard to find neutral journalism on any topic, let alone this one

But that said, we can always fall back on basic logic, like looking for good evidence. This report includes a long video of WPATH executives in discussion and it includes copies of hundreds of internal WPATH communications.

This is right from WPATH itself, the horse's mouth (haha).

There is no right to "fair competition" in regards to your complaints. It is a bogus smoke screen.

And yes, you do have the responsibility to elaborate on which rights your believe are being curtailed or endangered, as you're the one making that claim. If all you've got is that a transwoman was more skilled than her competition, then that's really damn pathetic.

I'll let the gobsmacking misogyny of those sentences stand without further comment.

 

[icehorse]

I didn't see them and doubt their accuracy and honesty (in regards to anything from them that agrees with you) as unlike you I have read things from WPATH.

The report I linked to includes a roughly hour-long video of top WPATH officials in conversation with each other. It also includes copies of hundreds of internal communications between WPATH officials.

WPATH officials have been made aware of these files and have not denied them.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Let's cut each other a little slack here.

No. Because what you're demanding me to provide yet again, and claimed I did not provide is right there. Right in quotations RIGHT ABOVE YOU ASKING FOR IT. I'll cut you some slack when you utilize basic reading comprehension.

To summarize the report above, in the US alone, between 2017 and 2021:

Okay so with the entire five-year span we have those numbers. You're leaving out the sample sizes of adolescents (again, without any indication of age percentages) who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

4,780 adolescents were prescribed puberty blockers.
14,726 adolescents were prescribed hormonal treatment.

This is from a population of 121,882 individuals ranging from 6 to 17 who received a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Puberty Blockers comprise only 3% of those individuals. Three percent. Hormonal Treatment comprised 12%. As also outlined in the article, these medical options are not made available until ages 10 to 11 with a prior diagnosis.

Then from 2019 to 2021, 776 mastectomies were performed on adolescents. That total population of adolescents diagnosed with gender dysphoria was 88,389 individuals, which gives us only 0.8%.

What part of "first do no harm" do you disagree with or not understand?

I will not entertain your strawman, horse. You are not a medical professional, thus you are not qualified to speak on what should or should not be done.

This is in reference to my claim that most GD kids are gay, not trans.

Then this shows your vast and massive ignorance of what gender dysphoria is, as well as what transgender is.

As I've said before, trans gender medicine is a highly politicized topic. These days it's hard to find neutral journalism on any topic, let alone this one

The absolute least you can do is vet your sources and not pull from a "think tank" that began as an anti-progressive Climate Change nonprofit and then branched into other issues to rock the boat.

I'll let the gobsmacking misogyny of those sentences stand without further comment.

You do that. Your lack of valid examples where women's rights are being infringed upon, curtailed, or put in danger by the existence of transwomen.

 

[icehorse]

Then this shows your vast and massive ignorance of what gender dysphoria is, as well as what transgender is.

You continue to dodge questions concerning the value of factual claims.
You have not responded to the many links I have provided.
You've made many appeals to (dubious), authority, on a debating website
You've gone out of your way to criticize me, and not argue the claims.

I'm done discussing this with you, have a fine day.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

That's really all that you took from that? Amazing.

 

[icehorse]

Then this shows your vast and massive ignorance of what gender dysphoria is, as well as what transgender is.

Having had a few hours to think on this, I will make one more comment. I said that most kids with GD grow out of it naturally and most are gay.

Your response as to my ignorance is quoted above. Oh sorry, my "vast and massive" ignorance.

So I went back again and reread the interview with Finland's top GD doctor. I'm simply reporting on what she said in the interview.

So apparently you think you know so much about this topic that you can call Finland's top GD doctor "massively ignorant".

It's crap posts like that from you that led me to stop debating with you.

Again, have a fine day in your oh-so-smug little world.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

You simply shouldn't have bothered if that's what you're going to come back with, horse. I can also do without your backhanded niceties.

 

[icehorse]

You simply shouldn't have bothered if that's what you're going to come back with, horse. I can also do without your backhanded niceties.

You're far from the only poster in this thread, and I just wanted other posters to understand that my claims come from reading the reports of true experts.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

And yet you quoted me, addressed me, paraphrased me, and insulted (well, attempted) me.

If you're going to flee from the discussion then simply flee.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Okay, I listened to 18:00 minutes, and I made a list of 19 issues with the presentation. Some strawmen, many distinctions without a difference, many hasty generalizations, gish gallops, several conflations, and at least one instance of non-scientific, agenda-driven language.

Did you happen to grasp his overall point?

A few (rough) timestamp examples:

:30 he strawmans thoughtful disagreements about gender stereotypes

How?

:33 same with gender

How?

:51 he talks about a "two gender system" - another strawman

How?

Jumping ahead at around 17:30 or so he says:

"Gender is how an individual organism expresses their sexual identity in a cultural context".

Even by his own standards, that's inconsistent with other things he's said and it's inconsistent with what thoughtful people understand about gender. For example, a girl who expresses a lot of masculine traits, i.e. a "tomboy" is in NO WAY expressing her sexual identity when she climbs a tree.

I don't think it's inconsistent with what "thoughtful people understand about gender."

==

Now, how about you spending half the time reading the link I gave you?

I'll get back to ya.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The existence of rare exceptions to biological categories does not render those categories wrong.


Once again:

The evidence supporting "gender affirming care" is of very low reliability

This was in response to, "The very title of your thread and consistent limitations of personhood to reproductive organs through an oversimplified view of genetics and complete ignorance of social elements beyond that. Let's illustrate."


Your response indicates that you didn't take away the point of the Forest Valkai video I posted. Which was the very reason I posted it in the first place.
Oh well.

 

[icehorse]

This was in response to, "The very title of your thread and consistent limitations of personhood to reproductive organs through an oversimplified view of genetics and complete ignorance of social elements beyond that. Let's illustrate."


Your response indicates that you didn't take away the point of the Forest Valkai video I posted. Which was the very reason I posted it in the first place.
Oh well.

I often summarize long videos that I post, as a courtesy.

That said, it's hard for me to try to steelman Forest's video because I see so many logical errors in it, but I'll try:

I think Forest is trying to say that sex isn't a simple, binary condition.

 

[icehorse]

I don't think it's inconsistent with what "thoughtful people understand about gender."

So what do you think specifically about the girl who is a tomboy climbing a tree. (And if you don't like the tree climbing example, then insert a different one, e.g. brick laying?)

Do you think that the tomboy who is doing something that's usually considered "masculine" is expressing her sexual identity in that moment?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

It's still baffling that you're using non-sexual activities (neither of which are expressions of gender, either) to try and make an argument.

 

[icehorse]

It's still baffling that you're using non-sexual activities (neither of which are expressions of gender, either) to try and make an argument.

How do you define "gender" ?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

How do you define "gender" ?

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of individuals along a diverse spectrum.