Hinduist would you agree with this statement?

[Aupmanyav]

your sister cares about you , she worries when she hears you talking nonsense for the sake of speaking , she cares about the others listening to this nonsense .. please let us have a conversation which goes beyond opinion .

Thanks, Ratikala. Vedas are very important source for historical and social research. I have always believed that. I will say more beyond opinion when I have better facts.

 

[Tyaga]

Yes Yama was son of Vivasvant and one of the first mortal(that makes him a brother of Manu).He attained Godhood after he died.In Iranian version,he was sinned because of his association with the Daevas.Iranian tradition however,does not remember Manu or Yami,the twin sister of Yama.

 

[Aupmanyav]

JAMSHID, Myth of Jamshid? Encyclopaedia Iranica
According to Zādspram, Zarathustra was descended from Nēryōsang through Pōrušasp and from Frēdōn son of Āspīy through Pōrušasp’s mother Wēzag and from Jam through the Āspīyān family (cf. Bundahišn 35.52, on Frēdōn’s descent). The Bundahišn (35.8) also records that Pōrušasp was descended from Manuščihr, a tradition found later as well (Ṭabari, I/2, pp. 681-82, tr., IV, p. 77; see the genealogical tables in Justi, pp. 390-93). Jam and Jamī (Jamag). In the Rigveda, Yama has a twin sister Yamī, while, in Iran, only Pahlavi Jam has a twin sister Jamī (Jamag).

Was Zarathrushta a 'Puru'?

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Actually, I think that the name yamI itself is based on yama, just like indrANi and indra (only based on brother rather than husband). The actual name is yamunA, as in the yamunAnadI. Actually, perhaps a better comparison would by jAhnavI and ga~NgA. The latter is the actual name, whereas the former just shows the descent. There are plenty such examples of "secondary names", like kR^iShNa and vAsudeva (son of vasudeva), or arjuna and pArtha (son of pR^itha) [although the latter could refer to many individuals, not just arjuna].

Was Zarathrushta a 'Puru'?

No, he was a "magAuno" (which may be some proto-tAntrik brAhmaNa group, dunno), but was born in a mleccha land (Bactria), not near the madhyadesha (ga~NgA-yamunA region) where the pA~nchAla kingdom had the most influence.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Aupmanyav ji :namaste

Thanks, Ratikala. Vedas are very important source for historical and social research. I have always believed that. I will say more beyond opinion when I have better facts.

indeed the vedas , upanisaids and all other texts can be invaluable sources of social and historical material well worthy of study but to those who belive in ' sri Gods ' they are more than usefill repisitorys of social and historical interest ...they are of Divine origin and are worshipable in their own right ,

but prabhu ji this aside I did not chide you over this matter , I wished to clarify the description given about hindu and buddhist beleifs in rebirth

I have no arguement with you over the importance of the vedas :namaste

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, he was a "magAuno" (which may be some proto-tAntrik brAhmaNa group, dunno), but was born in a mleccha land (Bactria), not near the madhyadesha (ga~NgA-yamunA region) where the pA~nchAla kingdom had the most influence.[/COLOR][/I][/B]

Jas, "magAuno" corrosponds with 'Maghāvan", generally Indra. Zoroaster's people had visited Sapta-Sindhu. It was their fifteenth homeland. The coming of Parsis was, sort of, a second coming for them. At one time all these lands, far and wide, belonged to Aryans.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. they are of Divine origin and are worshipable in their own right, ..

I have no problem at all with that. For me, just the existence of 'Nasadiya Sukta' makes RigVeda divine and worshipable. Only Gods could inspire such a wonderful hymn.

 

[Tyaga]

JAMSHID, Myth of Jamshid? Encyclopaedia Iranica
According to Zādspram, Zarathustra was descended from Nēryōsang through Pōrušasp and from Frēdōn son of Āspīy through Pōrušasp’s mother Wēzag and from Jam through the Āspīyān family (cf. Bundahišn 35.52, on Frēdōn’s descent). The Bundahišn (35.8) also records that Pōrušasp was descended from Manuščihr, a tradition found later as well (Ṭabari, I/2, pp. 681-82, tr., IV, p. 77; see the genealogical tables in Justi, pp. 390-93). Jam and Jamī (Jamag). In the Rigveda, Yama has a twin sister Yamī, while, in Iran, only Pahlavi Jam has a twin sister Jamī (Jamag).

Was Zarathrushta a 'Puru'?

Pahlavi is later than Avestan

And i think Zarathustra was an Athravan(from the line of Rishi Atharvan)

 

[Tyaga]

I have no problem at all with that. For me, just the existence of 'Nasadiya Sukta' makes RigVeda divine and worshipable. Only Gods could inspire such a wonderful hymn.

Indeed.The phrases "darkness was covered by darkness" or "The one breathed without its own air" seems to be out of this world for me !

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Jas, "magAuno" corrosponds with 'Maghāvan", generally Indra. Zoroaster's people had visited Sapta-Sindhu. It was their fifteenth homeland. The coming of Parsis was, sort of, a second coming for them. At one time all these lands, far and wide, belonged to Aryans.

There is no such word maghAvan, it's maghavan or maghavA/maghavAn which means beneficent one, from magha (bounty) + vant (possessor/controller); btw, the word maghonIH (i.e. liberal in distribution/munificent), one of the epithets of puShan (and many other deities) is also related to the word "magha."
Edit: To me, the closest thing to magAuno in saMskR^it would be maghóno (मघोनो, sa~Ndhi-ed form of मघोनस्, which is the accusative form of मघवत्, not मघवन्त्, so it is an adjective rather than a name), like in the verse "maghaír maghóno átishUra dAshasi" (with gifts you out-give even the most wealthy of men) from the R^igveda [addressed to indra].
Edit again: Also, the distance between the "saptasindhavaH" and the madhyadesha (the primary locus of vedic culture) was also probably quite a bit, assuming that the former refers to the region around present day panjAb; I have lived in Kasur, Pakistan for a considerable portion of my life, and it takes more than 7 hours to drive from there to dillI (about the same as if you went from amRitsar to dillI) and another 10 or 11 hours to go to kAshI (it's not pleasant, I know from experience, lol) and Kasur is practically right next to the Wagah border; imagine if you were driving from Peshawar, Karachi, Rawalpindi, Gawadar, or some other location, that would be h***, lol.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Māgha: Shivaratri, Ganesh Chaturthi, Navaratri, etc. Harvest festivals of plenty.
Does not 'Madhyadesha' refer to Madhya Pradesh, Malwa, Indore, the fertile region, and not Kashi? I know that a portion of Punjab also is known as Malwa. The foreigners knew India as Meluhha.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Māgha: Shivaratri, Ganesh Chaturthi, Navaratri, etc. Harvest festivals of plenty.
Does not 'Madhyadesha' refer to Madhya Pradesh, Malwa, Indore, the fertile region, and not Kashi?

Not historically, no. The "madhyadesha" isn't referring to the center of bhArat, it's referring to the central area of brahmavarta*, the locus area of vedic civilization, probably near or around kAshI all the way north until the vraja region**; the bauddha-s called it majjhimadesa, I think.
*From the text Brahmâ and Bhairava: "Brahmâ represents the isolative domain of the sacred within the Vedic cultural universe (madhya desha) as opposed to non-Vedic India, which it could absorb and assimilate only by expanding and reorienting its profane pole so as to counter the secularizing tendency on its geographical borders, such as gave rise to post-axial Buddhism with its separation of a revalorized profane kingship finding its apogee in the Mauryan empire and Ashoka on the one hand and the exaggerated religious renunciation of the monastic order on the other."
**From the Wikipedia article for vraja/braj/brAj: "Geographically and culturally Brajbhoomi is a part of the Ganges-Yamuna Doab region, which has had an extensive influence on the entirety of Indian culture. Brajbhoomi falls right in the middle of the Doab. The area was an important part of the Madhya-desha or Aryavarta or midlands."

I know that a portion of Punjab also is known as Malwa. The foreigners knew India as Meluhha.

The name mAlvA comes from the mAlava tribe which established the mAlava kingdom (mAlava also means horse rider in punjAbi, I think). Regarding the latter statements, the meluhha can't refer to India, because Assyrians accounts talk of how Ashurbanipal destroyed the kings of Gutium, Amurru, and Meluhha who had allied themselves with the Babylonians against Ashurbanipal. If Meluhha was India, then there should be a trace of Ashurbanipal's influence, which is not found. Ironically, this meluhha theory is becoming popular because of an awful writer, AmiSh tripAThi.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I think the tribe was 'Madra'. But any one from 'a' (whichever) Mālwa would be a 'Mālavya' or 'Mālaviya'.

BTW, they say Kasur was founded by Kush, and Lahore by Lava, sons of Lord Rama.

 

[Tyaga]

If Meluhha was India, then there should be a trace of Ashurbanipal's influence, which is not found. Ironically, this meluhha theory is becoming popular because of an awful writer, AmiSh tripAThi.

Yes.But the Pali version of the term mleccha,milakkha is similar to the Sumerian melukhkha(another variant of meluhha).

I have a confusion btw,is mleccha pronounced as "mle-cha" or "mle-kka"?

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Yes.But the Pali version of the term mleccha,milakkha is similar to the Sumerian melukhkha(another variant of meluhha).

Wait, are you saying that Indians are mlecchas? Lol....

I have a confusion btw,is mleccha pronounced as "mle-cha" or "mle-kka"?

Like mle+ "ch"(च&#2381+"chha"(&#2331
See here (9:55)
[youtube]ZSfyWJJP-QE[/youtube]

 

[Tyaga]

Wait, are you saying that even Indians are mlecchas? Lol....

Don't blame me,it is the Finnish Indologist Asko Parpola who claims this.He claims meluhha and mleccha are derived from Dravidian name of the Harappan civilization 'mel-akam' literally "high place/abode/inside etc"

Like mle+ "ch"(च&#2381+"chha"(&#2331

Thank you for clarifying

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Don't blame me,it is the Finnish Indologist Asko Parpola who claims this.He claims meluhha and mleccha are derived from Dravidian name of the Harappan civilization 'mel-akam' literally "high place/abode/inside etc"

I would think mel agam would mean over a house. This sounds stupid, using this logic, one could allege the Malayali word maligha (palace) is connected to the Semitic root m-l-k (from which mAlik in Arabic and malku in akkadian come from), which refers to a king.

 

[Tyaga]

I would think mel agam would mean over a house....

Civilization is literally a 'house' of many people

 

[Tyaga]

This sounds stupid, using this logic, one could allege the Malayali word maligha (palace) is connected to the Semitic root m-l-k (from which mAlik in Arabic and malku in akkadian come from), which refers to a king.

You mean Maalika

And may be it is indeed connected with Semitic word because it is well known that Kerala had good trade contacts with the Arabs.
Some of us even have middle eastern DNA lol....

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Civilization is literally a 'house' of many people

Still, if they were civilized, then why would they call themselves mleccha? That seems awfully counter-intuitive; mleccha is used to refer to uncivilized people like medieval Turks and that sort, never as a self-identifier.
Although, I agree that mel can probably mean high rather than just "over." One example is melukoTe in karNATaka, where melu means upper and koTe means fort, which make sense the city was founded near yAdavagiri along the banks of the kAverI.