[Hindus Only] Question for Hindus

[निताइ dasa]

Which book mentions Mahaprabhu as an avatara?

Please see below link for list of verses from scripture:

http://gosai.com/writings/the-divinity-of-sri-caitanya-mahaprabhu-0

Of course you don't have to accept these verses (many schools don't as it would undermine their Siddhanta which is unfavourable for them), but we accept them as authoritative, as they were quoted by our Goswamis in their commentaries (just like orthodox Adwaitins consider Sankaracharyas references authoritative). I don't want to force anyone to accept it. However please don't presume to call what we believe 'lies' simply because we differ on this. Let us respect each others views in a spirit of understanding and unity.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Atharva Veda: It is normal to quote Chapter and verse when showing pramanas from scriptures. How is that the page omits it?
What is this "Purusa-Bodhini-Upanisad"? Never heard of this. Is it one of the Mukhya Upanishads? It is not mentioned even in the Muktika Canon.

Svetasvatara Upanishad, Translation by Swami Tyagisananda of Ramakrishna Math
Since it has two words, Mahan and Prabhu, you combine it to make Mahaprabhu. Funny.
Kindly explain how this relates to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu or Nitai.
Same for the quote from Mundaka Upanishad.
How does Srimad Bhagawatham 10.8.13 or 11.5.33 support your case?
Checking other pramanas mentioned on the page.

No, I do not accept all that Sankara says (existence of Ishvara in Vyavaharika). Belief should not go against proof.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Atharva Veda: It is normal to quote Chapter and verse when showing pramanas from scriptures. How is that the page omits it?
What is this "Purusa-Bodhini-Upanisad"

Okay, Purusa Bodhini Upanisad is an Upanishads quoted by Acharayas from both our and Nimbarkacharya's sampradaya. They fall into the category of Tapaniya Upanisads (with many verses in Purusa-Bodhini similiar to that in Gopala Tapani). This Upanishads cannot be found in traditional lists, (Muktika canon) because it was manifest later, that is why generally only Vaishnav Schools quote this. Other schools deny its authority, but we accept it. As for verse and chapter, I don't know, these pranamas are quoted within the commentaries of our Goswamis (Jiva Goswami in his sandarbhas), and they do not given a specific verse/chapter (for example Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes when quoting from it the following: "atha sris tad yatha purusha-bodhinyam atharvopanishadi" ).

The shlokas quoted from Bhagavatam are clearly there (with verse and chapter) so that forms the main crux of our proof. That is why I have always presented the proofs from the Bhagavatam in previous debates. We have two options here, either the Goswamis were lying and fabricated these verses, or they did not and these verses are authentic. Considering their honest character we accept the latter. This is the same for every single school of Vedanta. Sankaracharya, Ramanujacharya, and Madhavacharya all quote from verses in their commentaries which cannot be found in editions of texts today. For those in their respective schools it is authentic, for outsiders it is not. Yes Truth is one, but it is relative according to our experience. An atheist will never acknowledge the existence of God (no matter what scripture says) while a theist will see God everyone.

kindly explain how this relates to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu or Nitai.

This translation is clearly adwaita, what is to say it is the "right" one? I thought you did not believe in Guru, so why are you trusting the translation of this "Swami Tyagisananda"? For instance he translates 'Purusha' to mean "Self" when it could equally mean Lord Visnu. "Mahanprabhu" can also be taken to refer to Mahaprabhu. The point I am making is that even authority of scriptures and its interpretations are determined by whom be place our faith in(whatever school one may ascribe too).

Don't try to build your case only on false premises.

Hmm, false for you perhaps, but true for us.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I think the method of Goswmis was not correct though the purpose was not wrong. Goswami Tulsi Das did not indulge in these gymnastics, he was a real Goswami.

 

[निताइ dasa]

How does Srimad Bhagawatham 10.8.13 or 11.5.33 support your case?

Srimad Bhagawatham 10.8.13 prooves that their will be an Yuga Avatar in Kaliyuga whose bodily color will be golden and who will establish Yuga Dharma. Srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.33 is the shloka that immediately follows the "Krsna Varna tvisakrsnam shloka", and hence is a direct prayer to that Yuga Avatar. This is a refutation to some translation which translate SB 11.5.32 to refer to the devotees. So this verse confirms the avatar descent.

I think the method of Goswmis was not correct though the purpose was not wrong. Goswami Tulsi Das did not indulge in these gymnastics, he was a real Goswami.

Okay prabhuji, and I bow to your devotion to Tulsidas Goswami. Here is where we differ, so you can understand why we believe what we do. We don't want other schools to accept it, but please respect this is our view. Goswami is one who had mastered the senses. Please accept my favourite shlokas from his Ramacharitramanas as my peace offering to you and forgive me if I have offended you in any way. Jaya Nitai!

"cahu juga tini kåla tihu lokå, bhae nåma japi jiva bisokå.
beda puråna sata mata ehu, sakala sukrita phala råma sanehuu.
dhyånu prathama juga makhabidhiduje dvåpara paritopata prabhu pµuje
kali kevala mala mula malinå, påpa payonidhi jana mana minå.
nåma kåmataru kåla karålå, sumirata samana sakala jaga jålå.
råma nåma kali abhimata dåtå, hita paraloka loka pitu måtå.
nahiÚ kali karama na bhagati bibeku, råma nåma avalabana eku.
kålanemi kali kapata nidhånu, nåma sumati samaratha hanumånµ"

"In all the four yugas, the three kalas, and three lokas, the jiva have been rid of grief by repeating the Name. The verdict of the Vedas and the Purånas as well as of saints is just this; that love of Råma and His Name is the reward of all virtuous acts. In the first age, through meditation; in the second age, through sacrifice; and in the Dvåpara age the Lord is propitiated through worship. This age of Kali, however, is simply corrupt and the root of all impurities, where the mind of man wallows like a fish in the ocean of sin. In this terrible age the Name alone is the wish-yielding tree, the very thought of which puts an end to all the illusions of the world. The Name of Råma is the bestower of one's desired object in this age of Kali; It is beneficent in the other world and one's father and mother in this world. In Kaliyuga neither Karma nor Bhakti nor again Jnåna avails; the name of Råma is the only resort. The age of Kali is as it were the demon Kålanemi, the repository of all wiles; whereas the Name is the wise and mighty Hanumån" (Bala-Khanda Doha 25)

It was only due to Tulsidas ji that I have any devotion to Lord Hari. I remember as a child I would watch Ramanandan Sagar's Ramanayan, and listen to the beautiful avadhi shlokas written by Goswami Tulasidas (though I could not understand them). And when I later grew up, and understood the meaning I loved them even more! Lord Rama will always have a special place in my heart. "Rama Raghava Rama Raghava Rama Raghava Raksha mam"

 

[Aupmanyav]

I wholly agree with you.

 

[Chakra]

I like your double standard, Aup.

 

[ratikala]

Namaskaram Aupmanyav ji , ...

There can only be one truth. So one of the statements s a lie. 'Utter lie' to denote the 'andha bhakti' of some people who do not need any pramana other than what their guru says. Even Lord Buddha says that we should not accept something as truth just because it:"has been acquired by repeated hearing (anussava), nor upon tradition (paramparā), nor upon rumor (itikirā), nor upon what is in a scripture (piṭaka-sampadāna), nor upon surmise (takka-hetu), nor upon an axiom (naya-hetu), nor upon specious reasoning (ākāra-parivitakka), nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over (diṭṭhi-nijjhān-akkh-antiyā), nor upon another's seeming ability (bhabba-rūpatāya), nor upon the consideration, The monk is our teacher (samaṇo no garū)."

Have you short memory prabhu ji we had this conversation just recently , ....2nd January 2016 .... !

namaskaram Aupmanyav ji , ...

....here you bring up a very valid point , ...

however it is prehaps the most missquoted and missused teaching of the Buddha , ..

sadly it is the quote most widely abused and used to support the attitude of non surrender , ....

now it is beng used to inforce your statment that because there4 is but one truth all else is a lie !
this is truely twoisting the Words of the buddha to support a very weak argument , .....

let us please examine what Buddha is saying , ..and look at it in the context of this argument , ....(Small note This is not a good translation but I will use it all the same )

"Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing (anussava),

this should better be taken to mean ..Do not accept on the strenght of hearing alone , ...it dosent mean discount something , it simply means examine it , and to do this we must remain open minded , ...

or upon tradition (paramparā),

Simmilarly we should not accept on strength of Parampara alone , ...again we should examine and test out all teachings and traditions before blindly following , ...

Do you think that Gaudiyas are blindly following , or would you grant us the favour of considering that we also may use our inteligendce to decern what we beleive to be a valid path before jumping on it , ...or are we all blind fools ?

However the Dalai lama speaking on this subject said that ''we should put everything to the test , but upon finding it to be reliable , to be benificial , one should put it into practice'' , .....

Do you think that Gaudiyas are incapable of doing this ? or does it scare an Atheist that a Gaudiya having considered the teachings of lord Chaitanya , and finding them to be most perfect for his personal disposition , that he therefore devotes himself to glorifying the sourse of his joy , ...... If he did not he would be a hypocryte , ....

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Aupmanyav ji

Ratiben, see, no avatara, not even an 'amshavatara' between Lord Buddha and Lord Kalki. And I hope you would not say that Sage VedaVyasa, himself an 'amshavatara' - did not know?

prehaps that is s because there are six kinds of incarnations of Sri Krsna , purusa avatara , lila avatara , guna avatara , manvantara avatara , yuga avatara , and Saktyavesa avatara , ....

we are talking about lila avataras , .... my appologies I missed one before , ....

A list of incarnations is given in Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.3), and they are as follows: (1) Kumaras, (2) Narada, (3) Varaha, (4) Matsya, (5) Yajna, (6) Nara-narayana, (7) Kardami Kapila, (8) Dattatreya, (9) Hayasirsa, (10) Hamsa, (11) Dhruvapriya or Prsnigarbha, (12) Rsabha, (13) Prthu, (14) Narasimha, (15) Kurma, (16) Dhanvantari, (17) Mohini, (18) Vamana, (19) Bhargava (Parasurama), (20) Raghavendra, (21) Vyasa, (22) Pralambari Balarama, (23) Krishna, (24) Buddha (25) Kalki.

then there are hidden avataras , .....

and as pointed out before , ..Srimad Bhagavatam says , ...There is no end to the expansions and incarnations of Krsna ., .... It is confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.26 , ....'' there is no limit to the incarnations of the Supreme Lord , just as there is no limit to the waves of the ocean''

 

[shivsomashekhar]

Do you think that Gaudiyas are blindly following , or would you grant us the favour of considering that we also may use our inteligendce to decern what we beleive to be a valid path before jumping on it , ...or are we all blind fools ?

With due respect, have you not on numerous occasions stated that you cannot approach this topic through logic and asked people to open up their hearts instead? In other words, the decision to adopt Gaudiya Vaishnavism was driven by sentiment and not logic. And this contradicts your above statement.

..Srimad Bhagavatam says , ...There is no end to the expansions and incarnations of Krsna ., .... It is confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.26 , ....'' there is no limit to the incarnations of the Supreme Lord , just as there is no limit to the waves of the ocean''

In which case, anyone can claim avatarhood and should not be doubted or questioned as they can always claim support via Bhagavatam 1.3.26. Neither can you reject any claim of avatarhood as you would then be violating your own interpretation of the Bhagavatam. For instance, you have to (by your own logic) accept that Sathya Sai Baba was a bonafide avatar of Krishna (as his disciples believe), no less than Chaitanya. But, do you?

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Shivsomashekhar ji ....

With due respect, have you not on numerous occasions stated that you cannot approach this topic through logic and asked people to open up their hearts instead? In other words, the decision to adopt Gaudiya Vaishnavism was driven by sentiment and not logic. And this contradicts your above statement.

prabhu ji , ....with equal respect may I remind you that in recent conversations the reference I made was to Material logic , ....there is I belive more to inteligence that Material logic ?

If I may try to explain from my own side (as I canot so easily speak from any others point of veiw or experience)...(although that does not stop some here from trying to do so, ...) ...that the decission to addopt Gaudiya Vaisnavism on my part was based upon, ...

1, observation , ...
2, meditation , ...
3, experience , ....

you forget that my background is Buddhist , so no I am not in the least prone to sentiment but is more prone to unbiased examination , ...if however I find that through observation , meditation and experience that an acharya teaches the way to atain equanimity and Bliss then I experience great joy , ...please do not confuse this with ''sentiment ,'' ....

ln which case, anyone can claim avatarhood and should not be doubted or questioned as they can always claim support via Bhagavatam 1.3.26. Neither can you reject any claim of avatarhood as you would then be violating your own interpretation of the Bhagavatam. For instance, you have to (by your own logic) accept that Sathya Sai Baba was a bonafide avatar of Krishna (as his disciples believe), no less than Chaitanya. But, do you?

Many people may claim many sorts of things , ..especialy in this age of Kali as there are many who would delude them selves as much as they would delude others , ...but it is not my position to pass judgment , however before following such a person I would examine very carefuly that their words and their actions are pure , stainless , without personal motive , ...If the attitude they display is that of a pure devotee than I will follow them if it is not then I will politely and quietly leave , .....

 

[Aupmanyav]

I like your double standard, Aup.

Yes, when with theists, do as theists do. Nothing to be ashamed of.

 

[Terese]

Since when was truth subjective?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Do you think that Gaudiyas are incapable of doing this? or does it scare an Atheist that a Gaudiya having considered the teachings of lord Chaitanya, and finding them to be most perfect for his personal disposition, that he therefore devotes himself to glorifying the sourse of his joy, .. If he did not he would be a hypocryte, ..

Ratiben, I think you know that I have utmost respect for the devotion and philosophy of Mahaprabhu, just as much as a Gaudiya will have. The problem is in making him an avatara with patently false reading of the scriptures (quoting Vedas and not giving the reference and referrering ever new Upanishads). What is the need for Gaudiyas to resort to this? And now it seems a few more avataras have arrived and perhaps more are on anvil. That fake Mathas and Swamis fool simple people in India is well-known. My concern is the same as what you yourself have mentioned in the last paragraph of your last post - "Many people may claim many sorts of things ...".

Since when was truth subjective?

Truth is not subjective but every body is not capable of facing truth. Accepting truth was not easy for me too.

 

[निताइ dasa]

Since when was truth subjective?

Truth is one, but consideration of truths differs from school by school, and hence is subjective. Just look at the huge differences between the theistic and atheistic schools of Hinduism! It is importance that one should not be so quick to label other philosophies as "wrong" just because it disagrees with how one personally sees the truth. Such a statement is the height of disrespect, because it assumes that " I know the truth, therefore you are false". Aupmanyavji obviously has had a bad experience with the " fake Mathas and Swamis" of India (which there are, I am not disagreeing ). But this had made him unfavourably disposed to anything else outside his version of the truth. I respect that view, as it is what seems right to him.

Lord Gauranga Mahaprabhu being Sri Krsna Himself is a fundamental part of Gaudiya theology, as He is our only hope for deliverance. The Lordships when on this earth, gave everyone Krsna Prema to everyone regardless of caste, race, religion or gender. Premananda das Thakura sings "candale brahmana kare kula kuli, kabe na chilo e ranga!", "Even the dog eaters and Brahmins were seen to dance with each other under the influence of the Lord's Sankirtan, as anyone ever seen such a sight?". When Prakasananda Saraswati (who was the leader of the Vedantins in Varanasi) saw Lord Chaitanya, he commented “tumi sākṣāt bhagavān tabu yadi kara tāṅra ‘dāsa’-abhimāna" "You are directly Bhagavan, yet still you consider yourself His servant"

When I look back at the acharayas of the Gaudiya Parampara, I don't see the line of cheaters and liars but rather selfless souls who have given their lives to spread the message of Lord Chaitanyadev. Srila Prabhupada was 63 years old when he left the comforts of India and boarded a cargo ship (suffering from two heart attacks) to go to USA to preach the message of Lord Chaitanya. If he was a 'cheater' he would've happily stayed in the comforts of his own home in India, instead of going to new and alien country like USA at such an old age. The Goswamis character was also sublime. They lived as 'babajis' in Vraja, begging for their food everyday and living a highly renounced and spiritual life. Rupa and Sanatana were both illustrious ministers in the court of the Sultan, yet they gave that up in service to Lord Chaitanya. So then is it so wrong to trust in the statements of such personalities when they say "Lord Chaitanya is God"?. I say no it is not. Nitai!

 

[atanu]

Truth is one, but consideration of truths ....

To me truth is love (also called bliss). We are all restless to find this truth in past, in future, here, there, in that, in this, in money, in physical forms, in beauty, in power etc. etc.

When the restless mind turns back and comes home, it meets the beloved, akin to a loving couple uniting in peace. I call this satyam shivam sundaram. In this uniting there is no tension and no fear of another.

 

[Acintya_Ash]

Since when was truth subjective?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Aupmanyavji obviously has had a bad experience with the " fake Mathas and Swamis" of India (which there are, I am not disagreeing ). But this had made him unfavourably disposed to anything else outside his version of the truth.

Aupmanyav has had no bad experience with swamijis and babajis because he was well-schooled by his grandfather to think for himself. With the help of scriptures (my four - SrimadBhagawatham, SrimadBhagawadGita, Sri Ramacharit Manas and Upanishads), I never felt the need of any guru. They explained everything to me, but the fake mathas and swamis are all over India (you too agree to that). I have the images on my disk but inserting them here may transgress the rules of the forum. You can check on Google images for Asaram of Motera, Nithiyananda of Mahanirvani Akhada, Rampal of Karontha, Nilkanth of Swaminarayans.

 

[atanu]

Aupmanyav has had no bad experience with swamijis and babajis because he was well-schooled by his grandfather to think for himself. With the help of scriptures (my four - SrimadBhagawatham, SrimadBhagawadGita, Sri Ramacharit Manas and Upanishads), I never felt the need of any guru. They explained everything to me, but the fake mathas and swamis are all over India (you too agree to that). I have the images on my disk but inserting them here may transgress the rules of the forum. You can check on Google images for Asaram of Motera, Nithiyananda of Mahanirvani Akhada, Rampal of Karontha, Nilkanth of Swaminarayans.

One gets what one seeks.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Aupmanyav ji

Ratiben, I think you know that I have utmost respect for the devotion and philosophy of Mahaprabhu, just as much as a Gaudiya will have. The problem is in making him an avatara with patently false reading of the scriptures (quoting Vedas and not giving the reference and referrering ever new Upanishads). What is the need for Gaudiyas to resort to this? And now it seems a few more avataras have arrived and perhaps more are on anvil. That fake Mathas and Swamis fool simple people in India is well-known. My concern is the same as what you yourself have mentioned in the last paragraph of your last post - "Many people may claim many sorts of things ...".Truth is not subjective but every body is not capable of facing truth. Accepting truth was not easy for me too.

Prabhu ji , you know also that I have extreme concern about self appointed swamis and actresses who perport to be goddesses , ...enough said , .....

but if you would like verses , many have been suplied I am probably now repeating both my self and Nitai Dasa , ..but here are two confirming what has been said , ....or do you not accept Bhagavatam ? ......

asan varnas trayo hy asya
grhnato 'nuyugam tanuh
suklo raktas tatha pita
idanim krsnatam gatah


This boy [Krsna] has three other colors - white, red and yellow - as He appears in different ages. Now He has appeared in a transcendental blackish color. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.8.13, Gargamuni speaks to Nanda Maharaja)


krsna-varnam tvisakrsnam
sangopangastra-parsadam
yajnaih sankirtana-prayair
yajanti hi su-medhasah


In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the name of Krsna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krsna Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.5.32, Karabhajana Muni speaks to King Nimi)​

'Truth' however when it comes to the realisation of the true nature of the Supreme is no small matter , ...we all in this human form are capable of realising but a fraction of his ture Glory , ...how ten can we challenge the realisation of another as there are few of us that have more than partial realisation , ....Great souls put their Partial realisations together like peices of a puzzle , this has been the actions of the great acharyas , ..therefore we should not be dissmissive of Later upanisads , ..but should look upon them in the spirit you so rightly recomended as spoken by Gautama Buddha himself , ...being that we should not blindly accept but that we should examine with an open mind , ..we should not pre judge but be willing to place all peices of the puzzle on the table before us and try to examine what fits togeter before one rejects any peice as eronious , ...

please remember also that an Upanisad is or can be said to be esoteric thus one is to sit at the feet of the Spiritual master to receive his discourse on the matter , such writings (and likewise the Vedas) canot be taken on any literal superficial apperance , ...one must apply oneself to understanding such material , therefore one canot expect to get an identical discource from different sources , .. even that being said , .... our individual capacity to understand can be likened to the phases of the moon which is occluded by our own ignorance , to some it apears cresent like , to others fully efulgent , .....