His Eminence, The Pope.

[savagewind]

I am disputing the idea of the Catholic apologetics that the Catholic Church is not saying that a person must believe God's message is coming from the Church.

Quote: "God's salvation is made present...in the sacred actions of the Churches liturgy".

Be blind if you want to. I don't care.

 

[metis]

Yes, but I am proving that the words are saying that THEY are the way. I am talking about the Church's words and proof that someone can definitely read that they say, "the Church is the way". OK?

Reread my last post because I added another paragraph at the end. I'll highlight it in red right after posting this.

 

[metis]

Be blind if you want to. I don't care.

I have no idea where this is coming from.

 

[savagewind]

III The Knowledge of God According to The Church.

.....The Church holds that God can be known.....[but] transcends the visible order of things....the human mind is hampered in the attaining of such truths......is why man stands in need of God's revelation....

By whom, pray tell?

 

[savagewind]

Reread my last post because I added another paragraph at the end. I'll highlight it in red right after posting this.

No. I don't see it. Do you mean, "My faith statement"? That is in red, but it's not a paragraph.

 

[savagewind]

Concretely, it will be in the sincere practice of what is Good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God´s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize him as their Saviour.
excerpt from 'dialogue and proclamation'

That might be legal speagal. Some people know how to read between the lines of what they really say. You don't?

Listen. But, what is GOOD, according to your Church?

 

[savagewind]

This appears to be getting me nowhere so I think the best thing to do right now is to quit.

 

[savagewind]

I have no idea where this is coming from.

It's about reading between the lines. You don't do that, I think.

 

[metis]

No. I don't see it. Do you mean, "My faith statement"? That is in red, but it's not a paragraph.

It's in my post #119, the addition of which I'll repost now: BTW, just to be clear, the Church teaches that if one has adequate exposure to understanding the Church, and yet rejects it, they will not likely be "saved" according to Church dogma. Because of this, if this were to be correct, I cannot be "saved" as I am not Catholic, nor do I take the sacraments, nor do I have any intention of converting. However, PF has said some things that indicates to me that he quite possibly doesn't buy into that teaching either.

 

[metis]

It's about reading between the lines. You don't do that, I think.

So, throwing insults is your m.o. after I've been trying to help you?

 

[savagewind]

So, throwing insults is your m.o. after I've been trying to help you?

I have tried to help you to see that someone who can read between the lines can realistically come to the conclusion that the Church says that she is the only way and you seem to be saying NONSENSE, that isn't right. Some people can see that he/she is right! The people who can see it can read between the lines of the Churche's doctrine. Seeing that YOU CAN'T, just means to me that you can't read between the lines. How is that an insult? If you can't see and I say, "you can't see", how is it insulting?

 

[savagewind]

@metis I didn't say that I know you can't read between the lines. I said that I think you can't. It is what I see therefore what I think. And my thinking is insulting? Great. Just great!

 

[metis]

I have tried to help you to see that someone who can read between the lines can realistically come to the conclusion that the Church says that she is the only way and you seem to be saying NONSENSE, that isn't right. Some people can see that he/she is right! The people who can see it can read between the lines of the Churche's doctrine. Seeing that YOU CAN'T, just means to me that you can't read between the lines. How is that an insult? If you can't see and I say, "you are blind", how is it insulting?

We're done, so go and believe whatever your heart so desires. One simply shouldn't complain about some teachings that they feel are not moral but then act without morals themselves by making insulting and demeaning remarks towards someone who actually has been trying to help them.

So, you can go your way and I'll go mine.

 

[savagewind]

We're done, so go and believe whatever your heart so desires. One simply shouldn't complain about some teachings that they feel are not moral but then act without morals themselves by making insulting and demeaning remarks towards someone who actually has been trying to help them.

So, you can go your way and I'll go mine.

What's wrong with someone who doesn't/won/t/can't read between the lines?

 

[savagewind]

It is my opinion that MOST people don't. So, if I say that it looks like YOU don't, how is that an insult, please?

 

[savagewind]

These are what I am responding

LOL! Do you know anything about Catholicism? Really?

Here are some statements from a Catholic on another discussion group. This is what Catholics believe. Enjoy:

God has appointed the pope to be His Vicar here on earth. When we reject the pope, we reject Jesus, and when we reject Jesus, we reject God.
The pope is not God but stands in for God.
Jesus is speaking to His apostles here, the first bishops of the Catholic Church. He is also speaking to Peter, the first pope. If someone rejects them it's the same as rejecting Jesus.
...and the dogmatic encyclical Humanae Vitae, issued by Pope Paul VI in 1968, says no birth control. And that goes for everyone in the human race, not just Catholics.
According to Our Lady of Fatima, when the pope consecrates Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in union with all the bishops of the world, Russia will be converted and the world will enjoy a prolonged period of peace.
The pope is a sinner like you and me. But the Holy Spirit makes the pope an infallible teacher on matters of faith and morals.
Part of loving God with all of one's soul, strength, and mind is belonging to the Church God founded and obeying the pope God appointed.
Proclaiming that the pope is Christ's vicar in no way detracts from Christ's supremecy. The pope is Christ's VICAR, His stand-in, His vice president, His executive officer so to speak.
You disobey God if you reject the pope.
The Church is not a loose fellowship of all believers. It is the visible organization founded by Christ, with a pope, bishops, priests, monks, and nuns. In the New Testament, from Acts through Revelation, this is unmistakeably clear. Defiance of God, you say? Whenever anyone defies the Church they are defy God.
That's why we need to humbly submit ourselves to the pope and the Church.
...we need to keep in mind that believing in Jesus means believing in everything He taught, including the Church He founded and the pope He appointed.
The Church speaks for God.
Catholic assertions are the assertions of Jesus Christ.
To reject the pope is to reject God.
Confession, Communion, prayers to Mary and other saints, and obedience to the pope do lead to sanctity.
Believing on Jesus includes believing in the Church He founded and the Pope He appointed.
Q. Who has authority over the baptized?
A. The bishops and priests of the Catholic Church, especially the bishop of Rome, the pope, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
Q. What does God do with those who wittingly and knowingly reject the authority figures He has set up?
A. He sends them to Hell forever.
O dearest Holy Mother Mary, I pray that the next pope will crack down on liberal priests and seninarians, and priests and seminarians with homosexual tendencies, so that our children will be safe. I also pray for the return of all fallen-away Catholics, and the conversion of every man, woman, and child in the planet to Catholicism. Amen.

I was not brought up Catholic but took two Catholic theology classes during my undergrad years, eventually converted to Catholicism when 30, taught the RCIA program to adults for 14 years, but eventually left the church when I turned 50. Currently I am unaffiliated and probably will remain so.

Again, some of what you posted is simply not true or is misleading, but I really don't have the time to go through all of those points, especially since you made so many of them.

Anyone who is seriously interested can access the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" here and see for themselves: Catechism of the Catholic Church

If @Furchizedek came to his conclusion by reading between the lines, and I have seen it too by reading between the lines then @metis by your calling it "misleading" is insulting to us who can see it. Obviously, you can't see it and that I what I posted to you that you called "insulting".

 

[savagewind]

SIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If @Furchizedek is telling the truth then @metis is insulting him by saying his words are misleading.

I think @Furchizedek is telling the truth. Shrugs.

 

[savagewind]

Oh, the irony! If what @Furchizedek sees is real (because he has successfully read between the lines) and someone, anyone, calls what he sees "insulting" that person is actually, really, and truly calling what the Catholic Church really teaches insulting.

 

[Furchizedek]

Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420):
"As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. …This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. …And as for heretics, I have never spared them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that the Church's enemies are also my enemies." (Manual of Patrology and History of Theology)
Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430):
"No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)
Saint Fulgentius (died A.D. 533):
"Most firmly hold and never doubt that not only pagans, but also all Jews, all heretics, and all schismatics who finish this life outside of the Catholic Church, will go into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Enchiridion Patristicum)
Saint Bede the Venerable (died A.D. 735):
"Just as all within the ark were saved and all outside of it were carried away when the flood came, so when all who are pre-ordained to eternal life have entered the Church, the end of the world will come and all will perish who are found outside." (Hexaemeron)
Saint Thomas Aquinas (died A.D. 1274):
"There is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church." (Summa Theologiae)
Saint Peter Canisius (died A.D. 1597):
"Outside of this communion – as outside of the ark of Noah – there is absolutely no salvation for mortals: not for Jews or pagans who never received the faith of the Church, nor for heretics who, having received it, corrupted it; neither for the excommunicated or those who for any other serious cause deserve to be put away and separated from the body of the Church like pernicious members…for the rule of Cyprian and Augustine is certain: he will not have God for his Father who would not have the Church for his mother." (Catechismi Latini et Germanici)
Saint Robert Bellarmine (died A.D. 1621):
"Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed] we join together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins’…For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church." (De Sacramento Baptismi)

As well as Councils and various Popes:

• Fourth Lateran Council (1215): "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved."

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - Wikipedia

 

[Furchizedek]

The fact of the matter (IMO) is that the doctrine "There is no salvation outside of the Catholic church," is a doctrine of men. Jesus never said it. And it's certainly not biblical. It's been derived by men for the benefit of the Catholic church. (IMO) For Catholics or the church to try to dress it up and qualify it so as not to scare anyone off with their intransigence and imperiousness, is like putting lipstick on a pig, as the saying goes. That they say, Well, you might be OK if you didn't know," reminds me of that Eskimo joke:

Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know.'
Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'