Historical Case for the Resurrection of Jesus

[leroy]

I did , but you did not listen. But you can read the same refutations here if you like:

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I haven’t seen the debate, but at least in that summery Bart doesn’t explain why he rejects the group appearances of Jesus, and he doesn’t provides an alternative explanation

But who cares about Bart, the important question is, why do you reject the historicity of those appearances?

Btw, is there anything that Bart says in that text that you disagree with?

 

[leroy]

Any answer is not as good as a refutation.

A)Thats going outside the bedrock of facts.
B)There are people in my view who are prepared to die for lies, some have already been mentioned in this thread.


Its not discrimination in my view, Licona has written in the genre of apology a book which I doubt would pass peer review in a million years without significant modification

)There are people in my view who are prepared to die for lies, some have already been mentioned in this thread.

Yes, but the claim is that you are unlikely to die, in the name of a lie that you yourself invented.

1 yes one could lie

2 yes one can die for a lie

3 but nobody dies for a lie that he himself invented.

---
but who cares about Elvis, you can grant or reject his resururection and that has no barring in the argument form the OP

Assuming that you accept the bed rock fact, how do you explain them?

If you reject any of those facts, why do you reject it?



Whether if you can build a similar case for elvis or not, is irrelevant for the argument.

 

[leroy]

Hearsay promoted by apologists decades after the purported crucifixion. Framing it as evidence is silly at best.

why? because you say so?

 

[leroy]

Nope, you are incorrect again.


There is no good evidence for this. Paul, probably. But you keep making the mistake of conflating being in error with lying. In fact that makes your argument a strawman. No one has argued that Paul was lying except for apologists in their failed strawman arguments. Paul was probably mistaken. As to others dying for their faith there is no evidence that they did so in the sense that Christian use. In fact once again we only are reasonable sure of only two or three at the most of the apostles being put to death. How many of them were given the chance to recant? Probably none. Rome usually did not care about that from my understanding.

Actually we have pretty much everything that you do. The only reason that we do not have examples of people being killed for believing in Elvis is because there is no such law. So your claim that we do not have that is just a "So what?" argument. You would need to show that people would be killed for believing in Elvis for that part of your argument to work.

How many of them were given the chance to recant? Probably none

Well the evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

We know that Rome was persecuting Christians, and we know that they were given the chance to deny Jesus and save their lives.

As for the apostoles,

We know beyond reasonable doubt that Peter James and Paul died for their belives in the resurrection.

John was persecuted and captured.

And we have secondary evidence that suggest that the rest of the apostles also died for their believes.

But this is not part of the bed rock facts anyway , so not very relevant

 

[leroy]

So what? The people that thought they saw Elvis didn't make it up either.

So nothing, we simply agree on this point, Paul was not lying, he didn’t made it up,

How do you explain all the other appearances that paul reports in Corinthians 1-15

1 Corinthians 15
that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

So in your view Paul had a hallucination

What about Peter? The apearance to all the disciples? The 500 hundred? James?

Which of them where hallucinations? Which of them where invented by Paul? Which of them where invented by Paul´s sources? Which of them where leyends/rumors that Paul quoted?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I haven’t seen the debate, but at least in that summery Bart doesn’t explain why he rejects the group appearances of Jesus, and he doesn’t provides an alternative explanation

But who cares about Bart, the important question is, why do you reject the historicity of those appearances?

Btw, is there anything that Bart says in that text that you disagree with?

What group appearances? There is nothing at all reliable in the Bible that supports that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well the evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

We know that Rome was persecuting Christians, and we know that they were given the chance to deny Jesus and save their lives.

As for the apostoles,

We know beyond reasonable doubt that Peter James and Paul died for their belives in the resurrection.

John was persecuted and captured.

And we have secondary evidence that suggest that the rest of the apostles also died for their believes.

But this is not part of the bed rock facts anyway , so not very relevant

Backwards as usual. If you want to claim that as evidence the burden of proof is upon you. By trying to shift the burden of proof you admit that you have no evidence.

And "secondary evidence"? Do you mean hearsay or weaker? You do not even have " beyond a reasonable doubt " for any of the others. By the way, you just declared that you lost every evolution argument ever.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So nothing, we simply agree on this point, Paul was not lying, he didn’t made it up,

How do you explain all the other appearances that paul reports in Corinthians 1-15

1 Corinthians 15
that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

So in your view Paul had a hallucination

What about Peter? The apearance to all the disciples? The 500 hundred? James?

Which of them where hallucinations? Which of them where invented by Paul? Which of them where invented by Paul´s sources? Which of them where leyends/rumors that Paul quoted?

Do you realize that is hearsay at best?. And the "I do have a girlfriend! She lives in Canada. She's really hot" claim of Paul? You have to be kidding me.

 

[InChrist]

So the bible says, i have a different idea, that he was released while still alive, spent a few days recovering before showing his face again. Eventually succumbing to blood poisoning from bacteria on rusty nails.

I think that is a medically impossible senecio. Besides, the damage of the initial flogging …

“The whip that was used, called a flagrum, consisted of braided leather thongs with metal balls and pieces of sharp bone woven into or intertwined with the braids. The balls added weight to the whip, causing deep bruising as the victim was struck. The pieces of bone served to cut into the flesh. As the beating continued, the resulting cuts were so severe that the skeletal muscles, underlying veins, sinews, and bowels of victims were exposed.”

When the soldier pierced the side of Jesus and blood and water came, it proved He was dead…

“Prior to death, the sustained rapid heartbeat caused by hypovolemic shock also causes fluid to gather in the sack around the heart and around the lungs. This gathering of fluid in the membrane around the heart is called pericardial effusion, and the fluid gathering around the lungs is called pleural effusion. This explains why, after Jesus died and a Roman soldier thrust a spear through Jesus’ side, piercing both the lungs and the heart, blood and water came from His side just as John recorded in his Gospel (John 19:34).”

Why did blood and water come out of Jesus’ side when He was pierced? | GotQuestions.org

Why did blood and water come out of Jesus’ side when He was pierced? What were the blood and water symbols of?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[danieldemol]

Yes, but the claim is that you are unlikely to die, in the name of a lie that you yourself invented.

1 yes one could lie

2 yes one can die for a lie

3 but nobody dies for a lie that he himself invented.

Number 3 is demonstrably wrong in my view.
Marshall Applewhite co-founder of Heavens Gate cult claimed to be one of two witnesses of revelation. The theology of the group changed after the death of its other co-founder Nettles;

'The death of Nettles from cancer in 1985 challenged the group's views on ascension; where they originally believed that they would ascend to heaven while alive aboard a UFO, they later came to believe that the body was merely a "container" or "vehicle" for the soul and that their consciousness would be transferred to new "Next Level bodies" upon death.

On March 26, 1997, deputies of the San Diego County Sheriff's Department discovered the bodies of the 39 active members of the group, including that of Applewhite, in a house in the San Diego suburb of Rancho Santa Fe. They had participated in a coordinated series of ritual suicides, coinciding with the closest approach of Comet Hale–Bopp.[3][4]'

Source: Heaven's Gate (religious group) - Wikipedia

---
but who cares about Elvis, you can grant or reject his resururection and that has no barring in the argument form the OP

Assuming that you accept the bed rock fact, how do you explain them?

If you reject any of those facts, why do you reject it?



Whether if you can build a similar case for elvis or not, is irrelevant for the argument.

It is relevant because the only thing which makes one accept Jesus resurrection is special pleading in my opinion.

 

[leroy]

Backwards as usual. If you want to claim that as evidence the burden of proof is upon you. By trying to shift the burden of proof you admit that you have no evidence.

And "secondary evidence"? Do you mean hearsay or weaker? You do not even have " beyond a reasonable doubt " for any of the others. By the way, you just declared that you lost every evolution argument ever.

I don’t have time in this moment, but sure if you think is a relevant point I could support it with evidence.

 

[leroy]

Do you realize that is hearsay at best?. And the "I do have a girlfriend! She lives in Canada. She's really hot" claim of Paul? You have to be kidding me.

So paul had a hallucination and the rest are just rumors that paul quoted?

Is that your view?

 

[ChristineM]

I think that is a medically impossible senecio. Besides, the damage of the initial flogging …

“The whip that was used, called a flagrum, consisted of braided leather thongs with metal balls and pieces of sharp bone woven into or intertwined with the braids. The balls added weight to the whip, causing deep bruising as the victim was struck. The pieces of bone served to cut into the flesh. As the beating continued, the resulting cuts were so severe that the skeletal muscles, underlying veins, sinews, and bowels of victims were exposed.”

When the soldier pierced the side of Jesus and blood and water came, it proved He was dead…

“Prior to death, the sustained rapid heartbeat caused by hypovolemic shock also causes fluid to gather in the sack around the heart and around the lungs. This gathering of fluid in the membrane around the heart is called pericardial effusion, and the fluid gathering around the lungs is called pleural effusion. This explains why, after Jesus died and a Roman soldier thrust a spear through Jesus’ side, piercing both the lungs and the heart, blood and water came from His side just as John recorded in his Gospel (John 19:34).”

Why did blood and water come out of Jesus’ side when He was pierced? | GotQuestions.org

Why did blood and water come out of Jesus’ side when He was pierced? What were the blood and water symbols of?

www.gotquestions.org

The whipping was rough but deliberately not fatal, they wanted the person crucified to suffer for as long as possible.

Pearcing the "side" it is far more likely to sever a ureter than organs in the chest area, the "water" was more likely urine. I wonder, did anyone taste this "water"?

And of course l, the story was compiled and canonised (from what source is unknown) some 350 years after the crucifixion. I certainly wouldn't like to vouch for the accuracy.

 

[leroy]

Number 3 is demonstrably wrong in my view.
Marshall Applewhite co-founder of Heavens Gate cult claimed to be one of two witnesses of revelation. The theology of the group changed after the death of its other co-founder Nettles;

'The death of Nettles from cancer in 1985 challenged the group's views on ascension; where they originally believed that they would ascend to heaven while alive aboard a UFO, they later came to believe that the body was merely a "container" or "vehicle" for the soul and that their consciousness would be transferred to new "Next Level bodies" upon death.

On March 26, 1997, deputies of the San Diego County Sheriff's Department discovered the bodies of the 39 active members of the group, including that of Applewhite, in a house in the San Diego suburb of Rancho Santa Fe. They had participated in a coordinated series of ritual suicides, coinciding with the closest approach of Comet Hale–Bopp.[3][4]'

Source: Heaven's Gate (religious group) - Wikipedia

It is relevant because the only thing which makes one accept Jesus resurrection is special pleading in my opinion.

The allege special pleading is irrelevant.

Even if I am committing that fallacy, that doesn’t affect the argument in the OP, at most it would prove that I am intellectually hypocrite but the argument in the OP is not dependent on weather if I am a hypocrite or not.

I don’t think Elvis is analogpus to the argument in the OP, but even if it where, that would have no bearing on weather if the argument is good or not.

I have no idea about Marshall Applewhite but assuming that you are correct, I would conclude that this man honestly thought that his believes are true,. (just like Paul did)

Whether if they were in a delusion or not is a different thing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don’t have time in this moment, but sure if you think is a relevant point I could support it with evidence.

I sincerely doubt it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So paul had a hallucination and the rest are just rumors that paul quoted?

Is that your view?

Paul was not the only one. Peter was likely to have had some too. If you had read my link you would have seen that after death hallucinations are rather common. Far far far more common than resurrections.

 

[leroy]

I mean that I believe that the most likely reason that the Bible reports a witnessed resurrection is because the claim, which was borrowed from earlier demigod legends, would be believed and would make Jesus a demigod in people's minds rather than merely a prophet.

So Paul borrowed/copied from pagan Gods myths ? is that your view?

Paul read about these Gods, and then inspired by those myths he invented the resurrection aperances?

Is that your view?

 

[Subduction Zone]

So Paul borrowed/copied from pagan Gods myths ? is that your view?

Paul read about these Gods, and then inspired by those myths he invented the resurrection aperances?

Is that your view?

Who says Paul did that? You need to quit putting unjustified assumptions in your questions. It only tells others how much that you do not know.

 

[leroy]

Paul was not the only one. Peter was likely to have had some too. If you had read my link you would have seen that after death hallucinations are rather common. Far far far more common than resurrections.

Ok so

Paul: Hallucination

Peter: Hallucination

What about James, all apostles, “the twelve” and the 500?

Which of them was a hallucination, and which where based on rumors (or lies, or whatever explanation you have in mind)?

If you had read my link

I did, and I aked you if Bart´s claims form that link represent your view, and you didn’t answer. This is why I am asking you directly.

Not to mention that Bart doesn’t explain all the appearances in that link (he only explains 3 Paul Peter and Marry)

what about the other 4 aperances that Paul mentiones in corinthians 1-15?


that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

 

[leroy]

leroy said:
So Paul borrowed/copied from pagan Gods myths ? is that your view?

Paul read about these Gods, and then inspired by those myths he invented the resurrection aperances?

Is that your view?

-

Who says Paul did that? You need to quit putting unjustified assumptions in your questions. It only tells others how much that you do not know.

Yes I don’t know, that is why there is a question mark at the end of the sentence. I am jut asking a question

You might find this surprising but in English this symbol “?” implies that the author of the sentence is asking a question. (not an assertion)

What symbol does your newly invented langue has to indicate that the sentence is a question?


Well at least I now know why it that you don’t answer questions, you didn’t know the meaning of this symbol “?”