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Historical Case for the Resurrection of Jesus

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
There is no burden of proof. It is not a matter of proof, it is a matter of faith and if you don't believe in God or that God can or did raise Jesus from the dead, that is as far as it goes really when it comes to proof.
If you think that believing in the resurrection of Jesus is irrational then it is irrational for you to believe that. IOW you would have to believe something irrational for you in order to believe Jesus rose from the dead.
But note that what is irrational for you might not be irrational for me. What is logical and rational depends on where we begin our reasoning from. If you begin with the idea that death is the end and there cannot be anything beyond that, then you end up in a different place with your reasoning about the resurrection.
But of course there is just one truth when it comes to the resurrection.
No. There is no "rational for me" and "rational for you." The rules of logic and reason apply equally to everyone and everything.

And you've just admitted that faith is the reason you give for believing something without evidence. Otherwise you'd just provide the evidence instead of invoking "faith." Which confirms what I've been saying about faith all along - that it is not a reliable pathway to truth because anything can be believed on faith. As you've just demonstrated.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Yes, it does. A belief is either the product of valid reasoning applied to premises or evidence (justified belief, sound conclusion) or believed by faith. If you got there using reason, your belief is rational. All other belief sidesteps reason, which is what the roots in irRATIOnal mean. Ir- is the privative prefix, -ratio- is reason, and -nal is the suffix for the adjectival form of the noun reason

View attachment 80774

Leroy, like the author of the OP and the source he quotes (Licona), thinks he has a good argument for believing that a resurrection actually occurred, not a faith-based belief.

But I did. I gave him a roadmap to the answer. I gave him my answer twice, and when he asked for it again, I showed him how to do an RF thread archives search, which he didn't acknowledge seeing, so he probably can't perform a search, can't find the post now, and probably is unaware that it exists. That's all I'll do for him. If he's frustrated, whose fault is that?

I'd gladly show you both my answer to why scripture reads as it does regarding resurrection and the instructions on how to perform a search, but I won't do either for Leroy again, so you'll either have to do that search yourself or remain in suspense with Leroy.

Not to a critical thinker. Jesus is also an "ancient mythical religious figure," although legendary may be more accurate than mythical if the gospel accounts of a first century itinerant Hebrew fundamentalist and reformer have some basis in fact and history.

The problem is that you unwittingly transform ideas and paraphrase them incorrectly the rare instances where you acknowledge seeing something written to you. It's a very common phenomenon on these threads and elsewhere. Someone says Paul may have been psychotic and that morphs into claiming that Paul was psychotic. On a recent thread, I noted that consciousness may well be an epiphenomenon of physical reality and that morphed into a claim of fact. Agnostic atheists tell theists that they do not have a god belief and this morphs into believing that there are no gods.

So sharing answers with you isn't the solution. What doesn't seem to penetrate is that you are considered unteachable. You keep posting as if people should view you as somebody who can process arguments, but you show that you can't. It seems like about 90% of the material goes by you unseen and another 10% is mangled in translation into what then are strawman representations of the actual argument. The solution is not to write more words to you to

That last part was a bonus - a constructive act of good will that might have been valuable to you. Your principal difficulty here is a thread full of posters with the same complaint and your nonreaction to that. It's put you at an impasse with them all. Nobody is willing to do things your way.

Regarding debating, there is no debating here beyond rebutting your same argument with the same rebuttal, which is no more a debate than ping-pong in which returned serves are never defended against is a volley. There's nothing more to do if you won't engage. You'd like me to repeat myself again, but you've also made me unwilling to do that by refusing to do YOUR job in a debate.

Like I keep saying, you need to occasionally ask yourself what's in it for the other guy to continue with you? And this applies to all aspects of life. Why should this employer keep paying me? Why should this woman remain my wife? Why should these people elect me? If you are indifferent to their needs, they are apt to disengage from you as many of us have done with you.

Too bad you reject so much constructive advice out of hand. There's some wisdom in these words. I'm a friend, not a foe, but you distrust me. I also can't hand feed a squirrel in the park unwilling to approach and meet me or let me get close to him. All I can do is leave my offering on the ground and hope he searches for and finds it.

I have no further duty to you. Your job was to pay attention to what was read to you and address it with rebuttal the first time. Your job was to make this a mutually beneficial exercise by engaging in dialectic. Your job was to search for the posts you let pass by unacknowledged and later claimed didn't exist, since you weren't paying attention the two or more times I gave you my hypothesis to account for the scriptural claim of resurrection and witnesses.

Done. Your job was to read it, understand it, and assimilate it. You didn't, and now you are seeing why you should have.

I AM writing to them. Writing to you has been fruitless. Or did you think I expect these words to have any impact on you? I don't. I don't expect you to remember seeing them five minutes from now. I don't expect anything at all about you change no matter what I write, so I need another reason to keep writing, don't I?

Yes. Nobody but you needs to see me post that reply again, and if I did, you still wouldn't see it.

And the word is benefit, not beneficiate, a term from metallurgy. That's for the thread, since I don't expect you to beneficiate from my words if you get my drift.

I'd say that resurrection is equally explanatory - not more - as any naturalistic hypothesis, since they all explain the existence of those scriptures, but has no explanatory power since there is no mechanism known for supernaturalism or reason to believe it is possible, and is thus more ad hoc and less plausible than any naturalistic explanation.

I won't be repeating this. Look at it now. Read it now. Rebut it now if you think you can. Try not to go back into your routine this time.

Never, unless the naturalistic explanation is impossible.

No, it doesn't.

So what?

Already done. Maybe not to you, but that doesn't matter except to you.

Did you mean alleged appearances to others? So what? That fact doesn't support supernaturalism as the explanation for why we read what we do in scripture.

No, he's not. That's wrong twice. He's not assuming a mental illness and there is evidence to suggest that that might be the case. Hallucination and delusion are part and parcel of psychosis. This is not necessarily what happened. The report could be a fabrication by Paul. But it is evidence supporting that possibility.

But I did. I gave him a roadmap to the answer. I gave him my answer twice, and when he asked for it again, I showed him how to do an RF thread archives search, which he didn't acknowledge seeing, so he probably can't perform a search, can't find the post now, and probably is unaware that it exists. That's all I'll do for him. If he's frustrated, whose fault is that?
No, you did not,

I asked you to

1 explain and develop a hypothesis

2 explain why is that hypothesis better according to the criteria in the OP

Your answer was “mistakes or lies” are at the top of the list.

Do you honestly think that this is a proper response? Is that your understanding of “expalining and developing hypothesis”?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
In a scenario where we know ghosts exist and magic is real, yeah, the supernatural claim may have some merit to it.
But we don't live in that world and your analogy doesn't work out. It seems to me that you've constructed a false analogy.
I am asking, if you make those observations (today in this world) would you accept the existence of Ghost (or atleast admit that it is a good hypothesis?)

Yes or no?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Right.
But do we live in a word where magical beings from parallell realms just pop-into our reality for a visit?
So what does that "example" tell you about the world that we DO live in?

If I make that observation in this world I would accept the existence of that “dragon”

Ok. Then natural hypothesis are more likely then supernatural ones.
Yes naturalistic hypothesis are intrinsically more likely than supernatural hypothesis.

This means that if you have 2 hypothesis that are equivalent in terms of explanatory power, explanatory scope etc….. you should prefer the naturalistic hypothesis.

But this doesn’t mean that you should always necessarily prefer the naturalistic hypothesis. This simply means naturalistic hypothesis have extra points, not that they always win by default.

In the world that we do inhabit, we have no such demonstrable examples.
Well that is exactly the topic of the debate, I am proposing that the resurrection as an example of such hypothesis.


Because "magic happened" has zero explanatory power.
So anything that doesn't require magic with just a inty bit of explanatory power, is always better then "no explanatory" power.
That is not what is meant by “explanatory power”

Explanatory power means that IF your hypothesis where true, how well does it explain the fact or facts to be explained.

In this case the fact (among others) would be

Paul concluded that Jesus resurrected.

Your hypothesis Hallucination caused by psychosis:

If Paul really did had a hallucination is he likely to conclude that Jesus rose from the dead? Answer (not really, people hallucinate and see the dead all the type, and they almost never (or perhaps never ever as far as we know) so the hallucination hypothesis doesn’t really explain the fact

My hypotheiss: Jesus really did rose from the dead: if my hypothesis is true, does it make sense that Paul concluded and proclaimed the resurrection?.............. yes…….. (for obvious reasons)



Please make an honest effort and try to understand this point, my hypothesis is obviously much better than yours in terms of explanatory power, because my hypothesis explaines the fact(s) better than yours.

This doesn’t mean that I automatically win, there are other important criteria that could trump “explanatory power”………… you can even argue that this criteria is not even important……………. But please acknowledge that my hypothesis has better explanatory power than yours.


 

Madmogwai

Madmogwai
I recently finished Michael Licona's book The Resurrection of Jesus: A New Historiographical Approach which argues that there are 3 minimal facts that are accepted by virtually all New Testament scholars which form the so called historical bedrock regarding the fate of Jesus. These are as follows:

1. Jesus was killed by crucifixion under Pilate
2. Very soon after his death, his disciples reported having experiences which they interpreted as the risen Jesus appearing to them, both individually and in groups
3. The early Church persecutor Paul also had an experience which he interpreted as Jesus appearing to him and this experience convinced him to convert to Christianity

Licona argues in detail against the naturalistic hypotheses that attempt to account for the bedrock and concludes that the best explanation is that Jesus actually rose from the dead. He does so by ranking each hypothesis based on how well they satisfy the following criteria:

- Explanatory scope - does the hypothesis account for all the data
- Explanatory power - how well does the hypothesis explain the data
- Plausibility - is the hypothesis compatible with or implied by facts that are generally accepted as known
- Less ad hoc - does the hypothesis go beyond what is known and makes unevidenced assumptions
- Illumination (a bonus criteria) - does the hypothesis shed light on other areas of inquiry

Has anyone interacted with this argument or others similar to it such as those of N.T. Wright, William Lane Craig and Gary Habermas? If so, what are your objections to it?
In light of the evidence presented, it becomes apparent that there is a lack of concrete proof supporting Jesus's resurrection. From a historical perspective, the absence of contemporary, unbiased sources raises doubts about the certainty of the event. The biblical accounts, affected by theological considerations and inconsistencies, cannot be regarded as unassailable historical records. Furthermore, the scientific implausibility of resurrection makes it difficult to accept the claim without empirical evidence. Skepticism and alternative explanations further challenge the notion of Jesus's resurrection.

While the belief in Jesus's resurrection holds great significance within Christianity, it is essential to approach this topic with a critical mindset. Acknowledging the absence of irrefutable evidence does not diminish the spiritual or religious significance that the resurrection holds for believers. Rather, it encourages further exploration and open dialogue that fosters a deeper understanding of this central aspect of Christian faith.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
She claimed to see her dead sister waving at her.

Her psychosis was long-term. She saw her sister on more than one occasion, along with other deceased family members on other occasions.
Ok, but she didn’t conclude “resurrection” that is my point, people see the “dead” all the time, but almost never (or for all we know never ever) these people conclude “resurrection”

If Paul would have had a hallucination, It is unlikely that he would have concluded “resurrection” but rather that Jesus is dead, he remained dead and his spirit is vesting him (just like your aunt probably concluded)

Just please grant this point with an unambiguous “yes I agree”……….. When people se the “dead” in a hallucination, they usually don’t conclude resurrection”

They may have taken his word for it. Or maybe they were humouring him. Or maybe nobody believed him. Or maybe people believe all kinds of things they've heard from others without bothering to verify them. We see this happening all over the place to this very day.

Yes maybe maybe maybe, that is why I am keep asking you and your atheist friends to develop a detailed and clear hypothesis.


Who died "in the name of the resurrection of Jesus?"
We know with high degree or certainty that Peter Paul and James died for their belief in the resurrection.

We know that John was persecuted and send to prison

We know with less degree of confidence that most of the other disciples also died for Jesus

And we know that Christians in general were persecuted, (but obviously we don’t have a list of who died and who didn´t)

We also know that they could have avoided punishment by simply denying Jesus.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Ok, but she didn’t conclude “resurrection” that is my point, people see the “dead” all the time, but almost never (or for all we know never ever) these people conclude “resurrection”
That's a silly and irrelevant point. My grandmother claims to have seen a person waving at her. A person who is no longer alive. So yes, my grandmother claims to have seen a resurrected person. She thought she was waving at a person who was alive.

But who cares about this point and why is it relevant? The only relevant point is that people can/have/do suffer from psychosis and see and hear things that don't actually exist in reality.
If Paul would have had a hallucination, It is unlikely that he would have concluded “resurrection” but rather that Jesus is dead, he remained dead and his spirit is vesting him
Who knows what Paul would or would not have concluded. We can't talk to him.
(just like your aunt probably concluded)
Not my aunt. It's my grandmother.
Just please grant this point with an unambiguous “yes I agree”……….. When people se the “dead” in a hallucination, they usually don’t conclude resurrection”
I have no idea since I haven't spoken with every single person who has ever experienced psychosis. I don't see why not. I've conversed with schizophrenic people who believe their thoughts are being broadcast to the world via radio waves. I've spoken with another who thinks his dead grandfather speaks to him and tells him to harm people.
Yes maybe maybe maybe, that is why I am keep asking you and your atheist friends to develop a detailed and clear hypothesis.
I just gave you a whole bunch of options, none of which required me to appeal to "the supernatural."
We know with high degree or certainty that Peter Paul and James died for their belief in the resurrection.

We know that John was persecuted and send to prison
Okay. And?
We know with less degree of confidence that most of the other disciples also died for Jesus
I don't think we have any idea what happened to the rest, as they just seem to have completely disappeared from "history" (according to the Bible, anyway) and never mentioned again.
And we know that Christians in general were persecuted, (but obviously we don’t have a list of who died and who didn´t)

We also know that they could have avoided punishment by simply denying Jesus.
And? We're back to this "if people die believing a claim then the claim must be true" .... ? Nah.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
That's a silly and irrelevant point. My grandmother claims to have seen a person waving at her. A person who is no longer alive. So yes, my grandmother claims to have seen a resurrected person. She thought she was waving at a person who was alive.

But who cares about this point and why is it relevant? The only relevant point is that people can/have/do suffer from psychosis and see and hear things that don't actually exist in reality.
The point if I grant that Paul had this mental illness and that he had an hallucination, that still doesn’t explain why did Paul concluded physical resurrection rather “it was a spirit” as most people conclude when they see the dead
Who knows what Paul would or would not have concluded. We can't talk to him.

Not my aunt. It's my grandmother.

I have no idea since I haven't spoken with every single person who has ever experienced psychosis.
,ok but luckelly some people had made studies on the subject , nobody concludes "physical resurection" when they have a hallucination
Okay. And?
And nothing, I am just answering to your question, why are you asking questions if they are not relevant?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
The point if I grant that Paul had this mental illness and that he had an hallucination, that still doesn’t explain why did Paul concluded physical resurrection rather “it was a spirit” as most people conclude when they see the dead
Why does anyone who is detached from reality say or think anything? Because they're detached from reality. And yes, it doesn't make much sense.
Your point is rendered moot by my grandmother's experience.

Again, we can't speak to Paul. Who knows why he did or thought anything? We have no way of finding out, at this point in time.
,ok but luckelly some people had made studies on the subject , nobody concludes "physical resurection" when they have a hallucination
There is a study somewhere claiming that nobody suffering from psychosis has ever concluded that they've seen a resurrected person? Where? I have no idea how anyone could rationally make such a claim.
And nothing, I am just answering to your question, why are you asking questions if they are not relevant?
This was your claim I was asking the questions in regard to:
"Would you die in the name of the resurrection of your aunt, just because your grandmother told you?......... if not why assuming that Peter and the disciples where any different?"

So, we've got maybe two people who supposedly died for their belief that Jesus had resurrected, according to the Bible, anyway. That's where my "and?" comes into play. So perhaps two people died for this belief and that means .... ?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I asked you to
1 explain and develop a hypothesis
2 explain why is that hypothesis better according to the criteria in the OP
Your answer was “mistakes or lies” are at the top of the list.
Huh. So suddenly, after maybe two weeks of playing dumb, you know some of my answer - the one you suggested didn't exist. Amazing. Explain that. How do you know any of my response and when did you learn it?
Do you honestly think that this is a proper response? Is that your understanding of “expalining and developing hypothesis”?
No, but it's incomplete. You left much of my argument out. You made no mention of parsimony or the differences between naturalistic and supernatural explanations, and you lost some of the other granularity in my conclusion, such as the difference between hypotheses actually involving witnesses seeing something mistaken for a resurrection and other explanations that don't. And I gave you estimates of their relative likelihood by category. Too bad you let that go by. I gave you advice there as well, but I don't think you saw it. From August 3, 2023:
  • You: "explain and develop your hypothesis"
  • Me: "Not again. You need to do your part and pay attention. Take notes if necessary."
Did you start doing that? Have you begun writing down comments for future reference? How about this one? Did you copy it? You didn't, did you. I'm assuming you never saw it or did and forgot it withing seconds:
  • Me: "Did you look into how to search RF? Go to [instructions deleted]"
If not, and if you can't find them again, they're lost forever to you, because I won't help you beyond a certain window of opportunity that has long since closed for you. You've waited too long. You waited too long to admit you know part of my argument. Had you made that comment a week to two ago, we'd have had something to work with. I would have amplified it because it would be an example of you attempting to cooperate, which is all I've ever required from you. But not now. It's way too late for that. I would feel like an impotent fool fetching answers for you now. My best and most charitable guess is that Brian or somebody else has helped you recently. All other explanations are worse for you. You knew all along but have been lying? You just learned how to do the search and won't admit it. What else is even logically possible? It came to you in a dream?

You dig these kinds of holes for yourself by failing to cooperate with the reasonable requests of others. I am now to the point that I wouldn't help you find those posts on a bet. You created that. You turned a potential benefactor against you. I not only won't help you, if you find it, I won't discuss it with you, either. That ship sailed off days or weeks ago.

Sorry, Leroy, but if you would like to see different outcomes in these discussion, try a new approach.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Why does anyone who is detached from reality say or think anything? Because they're detached from reality. And yes, it doesn't make much sense.
Your point is rendered moot by my grandmother's experience.

Again, we can't speak to Paul. Who knows why he did or thought anything? We have no way of finding out, at this point in time.

There is a study somewhere claiming that nobody suffering from psychosis has ever concluded that they've seen a resurrected person? Where? I have no idea how anyone could rationally make such a claim.

This was your claim I was asking the questions in regard to:
"Would you die in the name of the resurrection of your aunt, just because your grandmother told you?......... if not why assuming that Peter and the disciples where any different?"

So, we've got maybe two people who supposedly died for their belief that Jesus had resurrected, according to the Bible, anyway. That's where my "and?" comes into play. So perhaps two people died for this belief and that means .... ?
Again, your grandmother didn’t conclude that her sister had a bodily resurrection and neither does any of the people who see their dead beloved relatives.

So whatever happened to Paul and the disciples is not analogous to what happened to your grandmother.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Again, your grandmother didn’t conclude that her sister had a bodily resurrection and neither does any of the people who see their dead beloved relatives.
She claimed to see a person that was dead, swimming in ocean waves right in front of her. She didn't think or know she was dead. She thought the was alive, and swimming around in the ocean right in front of her. In actuality, she was not there and the ocean waves were just curtains.


So whatever happened to Paul and the disciples is not analogous to what happened to your grandmother.
It doesn't matter if my grandmother's story is analogous, because I'm not making an analogy here. I'm pointing out that we know that people suffering from psychosis see things that aren't there. In response, you've just claimed that no psychotic person has ever claimed to see a resurrected person. I have no idea how you can make such a claim.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Huh. So suddenly, after maybe two weeks of playing dumb, you know some of my answer - the one you suggested didn't exist. Amazing. Explain that. How do you know any of my response and when did you learn it?

No, but it's incomplete. You left much of my argument out. You made no mention of parsimony or the differences between naturalistic and supernatural explanations, and you lost some of the other granularity in my conclusion, such as the difference between hypotheses actually involving witnesses seeing something mistaken for a resurrection and other explanations that don't. And I gave you estimates of their relative likelihood by category. Too bad you let that go by. I gave you advice there as well, but I don't think you saw it. From August 3, 2023:
  • You: "explain and develop your hypothesis"
  • Me: "Not again. You need to do your part and pay attention. Take notes if necessary."
Did you start doing that? Have you begun writing down comments for future reference? How about this one? Did you copy it? You didn't, did you. I'm assuming you never saw it or did and forgot it withing seconds:
  • Me: "Did you look into how to search RF? Go to [instructions deleted]"
If not, and if you can't find them again, they're lost forever to you, because I won't help you beyond a certain window of opportunity that has long since closed for you. You've waited too long. You waited too long to admit you know part of my argument. Had you made that comment a week to two ago, we'd have had something to work with. I would have amplified it because it would be an example of you attempting to cooperate, which is all I've ever required from you. But not now. It's way too late for that. I would feel like an impotent fool fetching answers for you now. My best and most charitable guess is that Brian or somebody else has helped you recently. All other explanations are worse for you. You knew all along but have been lying? You just learned how to do the search and won't admit it. What else is even logically possible? It came to you in a dream?

You dig these kinds of holes for yourself by failing to cooperate with the reasonable requests of others. I am now to the point that I wouldn't help you find those posts on a bet. You created that. You turned a potential benefactor against you. I not only won't help you, if you find it, I won't discuss it with you, either. That ship sailed off days or weeks ago.

Sorry, Leroy, but if you would like to see different outcomes in these discussion, try a new approach.
I am not interested in playing your silly games, whenever you are ready to have an honest conversation please

1 provide a hypothesis (explain and develop it in detail)

2 explain why is it better than the resurrection according to the criteria in the OP

You've waited too long. You waited too long to admit you know part of my argument.
Again that is a lie (another lie) since the very moment you made that commet I asked you to develop and to explain with detail for one of those hypothesis.

Multiple times I granted that you did mention some hypothesis, but my concern was (and still is) that you didn´t provide any details.

I even accused you for throwing random hypothesis without developing any of them

Had you made that comment a week to two ago, we'd have had something to work with. I would have amplified it because it would be an example of you attempting to cooperate, which is all I've ever required from you
Put yourself in to my shoes. You have a long history of lying and making stuff up in many of our conversations, do you honestly think that I am that stupxd to think that things would have been different ?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
She claimed to see a person that was dead, swimming in ocean waves right in front of her. She didn't think or know she was dead. She thought the was alive, and swimming around in the ocean right in front of her. In actuality, she was not there and the ocean waves were just curtains.



It doesn't matter if my grandmother's story is analogous, because I'm not making an analogy here. I'm pointing out that we know that people suffering from psychosis see things that aren't there. In response, you've just claimed that no psychotic person has ever claimed to see a resurrected person. I have no idea how you can make such a claim.
Becasue there is a big difference between

1 seeing / hallucinating a dead person (or anything else that is not real)

2 and concluding beyond reasonable doubt a bodily resurrection.

There is a huge leap from 1 and 2

The second would require am additional chunk of evidence , nobody would conclude “resurection” just because they had vision.

For example if you are hungry you are more less likely to have a hallucination and see an ice-cream that doesn’t exist.

But from that to conclude that you actually ate and tasted the ice-cream there is a huge difference.

Many people see ice creams when they are hungry, but few (if any) would live the rest of their lives concluding with certainty that they ate that ice-cream

In the same way many people see their dead relatives, but few (if any) would conclude for the rest of their lives that that person had a bodily resurrection.-

The main point is that “hallucination” doesn’t really explain why the disciples concluded “resurrection”
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Becasue there is a big difference between

1 seeing / hallucinating a dead person (or anything else that is not real)

2 and concluding beyond reasonable doubt a bodily resurrection.

There is a huge leap from 1 and 2

The second would require am additional chunk of evidence , nobody would conclude “resurection” just because they had vision.

For example if you are hungry you are more less likely to have a hallucination and see an ice-cream that doesn’t exist.

But from that to conclude that you actually ate and tasted the ice-cream there is a huge difference.

Many people see ice creams when they are hungry, but few (if any) would live the rest of their lives concluding with certainty that they ate that ice-cream

In the same way many people see their dead relatives, but few (if any) would conclude for the rest of their lives that that person had a bodily resurrection.-

The main point is that “hallucination” doesn’t really explain why the disciples concluded “resurrection”
So you claim. But we've just discovered that you don't seem to know a whole lot about psychosis. Your claims here demonstrate that, not to mention that they don't have anything to actually do with psychosis.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
If God accepted the payment then it is paid.
Dying is dying, even if it was for a shorter time than eternity.
Jesus was sinless and so did not earn death and so it was unjust for Him to stay dead.
Jesus died, was killed, and God made it into an offering for sin.

Isa 53:10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
You're working from the assumption that he was killed in the first place. Isaiah is ambiguous on this point, at best.

There's an alternative explanation for his suffering:
6And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends.


An offering for sin from verse 10 doesn't necessarily have to involve death.

 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Again, we can't speak to Paul. Who knows why he did or thought anything? We have no way of finding out, at this point in time.
Who knows what anyone's motives are? A rational approach would be to develop a working model and go with that until better facts turn up.

We have Paul's writings and the historical records of people who interacted with him like James the Just. Given Paul's obvious influence on religious thought it would make sense to use what's available.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Claiming it does not make it so.
You assert as fact that there are other sources of information. Which are these?
They're documented by Robert Eisenman in his book "James the Brother of Jesus".

He uses sources like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Clementine Recognitions and Homilies, the Apostolic Constitutions, Eusebius, the two James Apocalypses from Nag Hammadi, the Western Text of Acts and the Slavonic Josephus.
 
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