History reapeats itself.

[it's_sam]

I see many people in here supporting the idea there is nothing before your life and nothing after from any perception, leaving little importance for any morale acts concerning our brothers. First i would like to state the argument in this forum as i have seen it over all. First side = I believe in god (fact), second side = no ultimate beings exist in humans or any other being after life (statement), third side= what are you talking about? (not sure, fact). You act like this is a new thought that you have more and more proof for every day, but the fact is that this argument is WAY old and people have always been able to look at their hands and the world and touch it and say "this is all that is real i have just proven it." These people even made societies out of this understanding "don't burden yourself with meaningless rituals". These societies grew from the people that thought in this way, and during that time it was common for them to be the rapers and pillagers, or even Rome and they had some sort of belief system. All this happened because simply "whats holding them back!" Again I say if you want Chaos leave me out of it.

 

[Wandered Off]

History reapeats itself.

I've heard that before.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I've heard that before.

Me too, and it's categorically false.

 

[Engyo]

What does an afterlife have to do with acting morally?

Is there no possibility of me choosing to act in a moral fashion WITHOUT a threat of eternal punishment as an incentive?

 

[it's_sam]

Me too, and it's categorically false.

Your right, because of the people fighting for the cause of a better world and changing the system around them. Wich in most cases are on the "I believe in God(deity" side of the argument.

 

[it's_sam]

What does an afterlife have to do with acting morally?

Is there no possibility of me choosing to act in a moral fashion WITHOUT a threat of eternal punishment as an incentive?

I'm saying your naive to think people won't do what you fear worste.

 

[LuisDantas]

Your right, because of the people fighting for the cause of a better world and changing the system around them. Wich in most cases are on the "I believe in God(deity" side of the argument.

There are many of them, no doubt about that. But I wonder if the correlation, even if in purely statistical terms, is indeed there. Wanting to make the world a better place is a very common trait among nonbelievers, you know.

 

[MissAlice]

I'm wondering if we could call this phenomenon of morale god or something not so much in the literal sense of god but a mentality we are ingrained with.

 

[it's_sam]

It works as thus, the "I believe in God" side and the "what are you talking about?" side were leading the major decisions on political standing. Seeing as how the religion is important to the people and we will defend it, they have to satisfy that will. The "I think your wrong but whatever" side has no importance or influence in this debate. So lets say that the society will be attacked by another country if they devide their religions beyond that of their aggressive neighbor. Or rather you can be allowed to be any religion. Because they are considering this they know what the consequence is. So they go ahead with the plans set forth to push back the oppressors and defend their chosen rights. The battle consists of the people in that nation "I believe in God", "what are you talking about", "I think there is no God" are all now fighting for one cause that is all revolving around the one thing that you say " I dont believe in" you are involved rather you like it or not. In almost every major event or amazing deed God(deity) was involved in the persons thoughts.

 

[LuisDantas]

I see many people in here supporting the idea there is nothing before your life and nothing after from any perception,

While common, that way of putting things is a bit misleading. Very few people believe that the world literally began and ends with their own personal lifes. What many of us atheists do believe is that our lives do indeed end with death - but there was life before us and there will be life after us, it just isn't our own.

leaving little importance for any morale acts concerning our brothers.

Not so, particularly among nonbelievers in an afterlife.

Part of the reason why there are people who have such a belief is because they feel a need for it. Many others simply do not.

First i would like to state the argument in this forum as i have seen it over all. First side = I believe in god (fact), second side = no ultimate beings exist in humans or any other being after life (statement), third side= what are you talking about? (not sure, fact).

I don't understand this third side, so I guess I adhere to it.

You act like this is a new thought that you have more and more proof for every day, but the fact is that this argument is WAY old and people have always been able to look at their hands and the world and touch it and say "this is all that is real i have just proven it." These people even made societies out of this understanding "don't burden yourself with meaningless rituals".

Are you saying that there have always been people who don't believe in afterlives? Sure. That is natural.

These societies grew from the people that thought in this way, and during that time it was common for them to be the rapers and pillagers,

Ex-cu-se me? What on earth are you talking about?

or even Rome and they had some sort of belief system. All this happened because simply "whats holding them back!" Again I say if you want Chaos leave me out of it.

Uh? I mean, really... uh?

 

[Engyo]

I'm saying your naive to think people won't do what you fear worste.

I don't think they won't, I know they will. What does that have to do with an eternal afterlife of either punishment or reward? It seems to me that those things have very little to do with how people act toward each other and our world.

If eternal reward and/or punishment were a real deterrant, we would see societies where those concepts were prevalent having significantly different levels of violent crime, adultery and so on. Can you point to any such statistics?

 

[it's_sam]

I don't think they won't, I know they will. What does that have to do with an eternal afterlife of either punishment or reward? It seems to me that those things have very little to do with how people act toward each other and our world.

If eternal reward and/or punishment were a real deterrant, we would see societies where those concepts were prevalent having significantly different levels of violent crime, adultery and so on. Can you point to any such statistics?

When people didn't have a UN to look out for them, or things like instant transfer of information. Things were alot different because people didnt have to answer to anything or anyone and in this they arose no care for anyone out of their family. For example the Vikings, or Mongols. Thats great that you care for YOUR people but your also not accepting responsiblity for the acts of your brothers because you desociate yourselfs from the effect. If people are in the understanding that you will have a day where you will be powerless and you will answer for your deeds it gives people a reason to not rape, pillage(steal), murder.

 

[LuisDantas]

People care about the world they will leave behind for their loved ones, you know.

 

[it's_sam]

But is that enough reason for everyone? Especialy to some that have seen what the world left for them was how they describe hell.

 

[it's_sam]

I see the largest benefit of religious scripture is so that people can see that they aren't alone in their suffering and that it does have a point, so keep pushin the good fight.

 

[LuisDantas]

Seeing as how lack of belief in an afterlife rarely (if ever) makes immoral ******** out of people, then yes, I guess it is indeed enough.

Unless you have some evidence pointing in the opposite direction?

Also... what does religious scripture have to do with it?

 

[it's_sam]

To me that IS religion, the scripture depicts the practices. There is no religion without the scripture of it. The scripture is where you find the benefits in mind and body and why people persue them in the first place.

 

[Engyo]

If people are in the understanding that you will have a day where you will be powerless and you will answer for your deeds it gives people a reason to not rape, pillage(steal), murder.

Is that the reason YOU don't rape, pillage, steal and murder? You would do so, except for the fact that your religion tells you that you will be judged after you die? Otherwise YOU would be out raping pillaging stealing and murdering?

 

[it's_sam]

Are you saying it's beyond me as a person of earth?

 

[Engyo]

Are you saying it's beyond me as a person of earth?

No. I am asking you if the reason that you yourself do not do such things is strictly and solely because of your religious teaching, or if you have other reasons beyond that teaching.