History reapeats itself.

[tumbleweed41]

I think Sam needs to study sociology, history, and moral philosophy.

 

[it's_sam]

More then I have everyday till i start sounding like you? Who is trying to conform who here? I don't expect you to do what i say, but you are on a religious website discussing religion so you can't tell me you don't take interest. I did more then read books and watch shows, I also talked to people involved in wars and political violence. I found out what they felt during what they faced. Books are great, and great for you and me cause i read too. Life is real and moving, unlike books. It takes a moving mind to keep up with that truth.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you really believe that people behave worse than animals until and unless they adopt some combination of faith in religious scripture and belief in an afterlife, Sam?

I just don't see how to conciliate such a belief with known human history, to say nothing of current day direct observation. I'm an atheist. I know many other atheists. We are no worse than anyone else.

 

[tomato1236]

Hm. This doesn't seem very I've-put-myself-in-your-shoes-ish. Shoes-ish is pretty hard to say. I believe in an afterlife, a judgement and in eternal consequences. I can't say that the fear of hell ever crosses my mind when making moral decisions. That would be bizarre. My beliefs do have a lot to do with my motives, my decision making process, etc., but I think it's naive to assume that since someone doesn't believe in an afterlife that they have absolutely no moral compass. On the other hand I think it's similarly naive to say that the non-believer makes every moral decision with the thought that, "This will make the world better for my babies." People in general (with maybe sociopathic exceptions) have an understanding of right and wrong and a natural desire to live their best. There have been plenty of religious people in history who have murdered, raped and plundered in the name of their God.

 

[it's_sam]

If you were holding a gun to someones head out of personal reasons, the thought of "am i going to hell for this?" wouldn't cross your mind?

 

[LuisDantas]

If you were holding a gun to someones head out of personal reasons, the thought of "am i going to hell for this?" wouldn't cross your mind?

Hard to tell. If I were in such a situation, I would be in a very unusual state of mind, that is for sure. Who knows what I would be thinking at such a time.

But I can tell you that I never once believed in Hell. I don't remember ever thinking that I might end up there - or, for that matter, in Heaven.

 

[it's_sam]

Do you really believe that people behave worse than animals until and unless they adopt some combination of faith in religious scripture and belief in an afterlife, Sam?

The thought of that exactly might make you lower the gun and try to reconcile the issue. What seperates us from the animals asside from that thought? We have grown through love, art, and war, then into technology because of this exactly. To say it has no pertinence is beside the fact, IT IS REAL and influences people daily.

 

[it's_sam]

A reminder, religion led to society, society led to war, war led to advancement, (wash, rinse, repeat)

 

[LuisDantas]

The thought of that exactly might make you lower the gun and try to reconcile the issue.

For some people, certainly. But I thought we were talking about the people who are not inclined to have such a thought.

So please answer my question. I'm really curious.

What seperates us from the animals asside from that thought?

AFAIK, mostly the capability for language and abstract thought. It may manifest itself through Abrahamic / Bhakti faith, for sure. But it is far from the only way, and that is certainly not the one and only source for basic morality.

We have grown through love, art, and war, then into technology because of this exactly. To say it has no pertinence is beside the fact, IT IS REAL and influences people daily.

Uh? Are you saying that belief in an afterlife is a prerequisite for love, art, war and even technology? I don't think so.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I think Sam needs to study sociology, history, and moral philosophy.

More then I have everyday till i start sounding like you? Who is trying to conform who here? I don't expect you to do what i say, but you are on a religious website discussing religion so you can't tell me you don't take interest.

Of course I take an interest in the motivation for human morality. I just find your limited view on needing a "scripture" or some reveled revelation, along with threats and promises of an afterlife to live a moral life to be without merit.
Morality is the result of societal evolution.

 

[LuisDantas]

On the other hand I think it's similarly naive to say that the non-believer makes every moral decision with the thought that, "This will make the world better for my babies."

Not every moral decision is quite so dramatic, but otherwise such a thought is not that far from reality, I think.

 

[LuisDantas]

A reminder, religion led to society, society led to war, war led to advancement, (wash, rinse, repeat)

Not really. Language led to society. Religion came a bit later, and it did not necessarily involve the idea of an afterlife, either.

Nor is war an unavoidable necessity for advancement (however you choose to define that word).

I fear that you are a bit too attached to some preconceived notion of how things came to pass.

 

[tumbleweed41]

A reminder, religion led to society, society led to war, war led to advancement, (wash, rinse, repeat)

If you would study a little anthropological history, you would see that you have the order and motivations wrong.
Society led to organized religion. Conflict between differing societies led to war. Advancement is triggered by both war and peace.
Only those who neglect history are bound to repeat it.

 

[it's_sam]

Are you so blind to see that im saying the scripture has led society to where we are today? My statements have never been focused on you needing more scripture then you have received. I can tell youve heard enough that bad thoughts are trvial to you. But this understanding is ONLY to YOU and only because of what you have heard thus far. If the words and thoughts of scripture never existed you think we would be in the same place? Honestly?

 

[tumbleweed41]

If you were holding a gun to someones head out of personal reasons, the thought of "am i going to hell for this?" wouldn't cross your mind?

No.
I have other reasons for not committing murder. And it is neither fear of hell or prison that motivates me. Such a person would be considered slightly sociopathic.

 

[tumbleweed41]

If you would study a little anthropological history, you would see that you have the order and motivations wrong.
Society led to organized religion. Conflict between differing societies led to war. Advancement is triggered by both war and peace.
Only those who neglect history are bound to repeat it.

Are you so blind to see that im saying the scripture has led society to where we are today? My statements have never been focused on you needing more scripture then you have received. I can tell youve heard enough that bad thoughts are trvial to you. But this understanding is ONLY to YOU and only because of what you have heard thus far. If the words and thoughts of scripture never existed you think we would be in the same place? Honestly?

We may be in a better place. Or worse. It would depend on the individual motivations of those who came before us.

 

[it's_sam]

And because they are a sociopath they now have no ability to change how they end up? I see it more like when you lose all control your either the kind that goes on a killing rampage or you simply walk around with no pants on talking to yourself. You can say if your control was ripped away you have enough good to counter the bad, but you CANNOT say that for everyone.

 

[it's_sam]

We may be in a better place. Or worse. It would depend on the individual motivations of those who came before us.

Thats absolutely right, and the motivations of our past worldwide is religion.

 

[tumbleweed41]

No.
I have other reasons for not committing murder. And it is neither fear of hell or prison that motivates me. Such a person would be considered slightly sociopathic.

And because they are a sociopath they now have no ability to change how they end up?

I did not say that. I said that if your only motivation for refraining from murder is fear of punishment, then you have sociopathic tendencies.

I see it more like when you lose all control your either the kind that goes on a killing rampage or you simply walk around with no pants on talking to yourself. You can say if your control was ripped away you have enough good to counter the bad, but you CANNOT say that for everyone.

No. And those who cannot control their actions are usually removed from society. That is how societal evolution works.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Thats absolutely right, and the motivations of our past worldwide is religion.

That is historically inaccurate. The biggest motivator in history is greed.