Holes in the trinity

[yokomodoful]

Is your point that it says he is Almighty and also that he is Jesus?

I agree it is Jesus who it is about. But Almighty means all ruling and it is true imo that Jesus was given the throne of The Father and that rulership has been handed over to him, The Son who is not The Father.

Almighty Strong's 3841 unrestricted power exercising absolute dominion. which belongs to 'Jesus' alone until he hands it back to The Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

What was accomplished at the death of the son? Was it not the handing over of the Kingdom of God to him? So now he is almighty in relation to judgement. He is not The Almighty God.

I was answering your question, "do you believe God has a beginning?" Jesus said he is the alpha and the omega. The beginning and the end, the first and the last. Yes God and only God has this nature.

 

[savagewind]

if you no longer believe in the Trinity, though, you didn't really wipe the slate clean. You got that from the JWs.

I never believed in the trinity. I was raised in the Lutheran and then the Congregational Church but I didn't know about the trinity doctrine until I learned about it from the Jehovah's Witnesses. They don't believe, it but they teach it (about it).

 

[savagewind]

I was answering your question, "do you believe God has a beginning?" Jesus said he is the alpha and the omega. The beginning and the end, the first and the last. Yes God and only God has this nature.

God does not have a beginning. Where did you get the idea that God does?
God cannot be first. To be first implies there will be others after but there isn't.

 

[savagewind]

One God and there is no one like God.

 

[yokomodoful]

God does not have a beginning. Where did you get the idea that God does?
God cannot be first. To be first implies there will be others after but there isn't.

Again, you started this post with, do you believe God has a beginning. First means nothing existed before Jesus and last means nothing will exist after. Attributes of God.

 

[savagewind]

Again, you started this post with, do you believe God has a beginning. First means nothing existed before Jesus and last means nothing will exist after. Attributes of God.

First does not mean nothing existed before. Alpha can mean that without the beginning of the alphabet there can be no alphabet. What does Jesus the Teacher embody? Faith, purpose, strength. He is God's purpose. There would be no humankind but for God's purpose in Jesus Christ. I do not believe Jesus existed with YHVH from the beginning. But I am sure God's love for him existed before anything else.

 

[yokomodoful]

Please, the question is; why is Jesus called a son?

He is called a son for our sake. The same reason he became a man-for our sake. When we become his brother, we will gain His Father as our Father. Jesus lowered himself for us.

 

[savagewind]

He is called a son for our sake. The same reason he became a man-for our sake. When we become his brother, we will gain His Father as our Father. Jesus lowered himself for us.

I believe that. But it proves Jesus is not God. Surely you do not presume to be God's brother which you would be if Jesus is God.

 

[Shermana]

I was answering your question, "do you believe God has a beginning?" Jesus said he is the alpha and the omega. The beginning and the end, the first and the last. Yes God and only God has this nature.

Jesus never said he was the Alpha and Omega. This is known as the "Speaker Confusion" issue. Only the Father ever calls himself the Alpha and the Omega (except for the in clearly interpolated Rev 1:11 which most translations omit for good reason), and in 22:13, it's an Angel stating a message from the Father. At best Jesus calls himself the First and the Last, which is not nearly the same as Alpha and Omega, since there can be more than one "First and the Last". He is the "First of Creation" and the "Last Adam" for example.

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/ao-speaker-confusion.html

 

[savagewind]

Jesus never said he was the Alpha and Omega. This is known as the "Speaker Confusion" issue. Only the Father ever calls himself the Alpha and the Omega (except for the in clearly interpolated Rev 1:11 which most translations omit for good reason), and in 22:13, it's an Angel stating a message from the Father. At best Jesus calls himself the First and the Last, which is not nearly the same as Alpha and Omega, since there can be more than one "First and the Last". He is the "First of Creation" and the "Last Adam" for example.

Examining the Trinity: AO - Alpha and Omega Speaker Confusion

In which scripture does The Father call himself that?

 

[Shermana]

In which scripture does The Father call himself that?

Rev 1:8 is the only verse where the Father Himself calls Himself Alpha and Omega. 22:13 has an Angel bearing His message where he says this.

1:11 in the KJV and a few other translations have Jesus calling himself this, but it's clearly an interpolation which most translations omit. Those who insist Jesus called himself that are up against much evidence that it's a forged verse, another example of Trinitarians writing things into the text to uphold their doctrine.

 

[savagewind]

Rev 1:8 might mean; I (Jesus) am the alpha and omega says (by the order of) the Lord God (YHVH), who is (speaking to you), who was (born by God) and who is coming (to judge) the almighty (or the last word). Enough!

 

[Shermana]

Rev 1:8 might mean; I (Jesus) am the alpha and omega says (by the order of) the Lord God (YHVH), who is (speaking to you), who was (born by God) and who is coming (to judge) the almighty (or the last word). Enough!

No, Jesus is not talking in 1:8. He begins talking in 1:11.

 

[savagewind]

What rev 1:8 means is he has not appointed himself (like so many people do).

Another way of putting it, imo, is By the order (word) of YHVH I have been given the first and the last place.

 

[Shermana]

What rev 1:8 means is he has not appointed himself (like so many people do).

Another way of putting it, imo, is By the order (word) of YHVH I have been given the first and the last place.

Well you'd have to really stretch the text far away from its plain meaning to get it to read the way you just made it.

 

[savagewind]

No, Jesus is not talking in 1:8. He begins talking in 1:11.

OK but you don't really know that

 

[savagewind]

Well you'd have to really stretch the text far away from its plain meaning to get it to read the way you just made it.

I don't think so. There are only two instances in the Greek scripture where YHVH speaks and in each he does not say "I am" he says "He is". Do you want me to look them up?

 

[yokomodoful]

Rev 1:8 is the only verse where the Father Himself calls Himself Alpha and Omega. 22:13 has an Angel bearing His message where he says this.

1:11 in the KJV and a few other translations have Jesus calling himself this, but it's clearly an interpolation which most translations omit. Those who insist Jesus called himself that are up against much evidence that it's a forged verse, another example of Trinitarians writing things into the text to uphold their doctrine.

In revelation 1:17 it is Jesus saying he is the first and the last.

 

[savagewind]

Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

 

[yokomodoful]

Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

I don't think anyone on recent posts on this thread is denying that.