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Holes in the trinity

InChrist

Free4ever
And yet in Acts 7:55-56, we have an example of Stephen, who "...being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Stephen apparently saw two distinct beings because he was able to determine where the Father and the Son were with respect to each other. Furthermore, he was not completely consumed by a fire or anything else as a result of his experience.


You have brought up a very appropriate passage of scripture and there are a few other instances where certain individuals did see God and live although in Exodus God said to Moses ...“You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” Exodus 33:20-23

In my previous post I said that humans in their sinful condition cannot see God and live. So there must be some reason why there are a few exceptions and I believe it is Jesus' words which indicate the reason...Blessed are the pure in heart,for they shall see God. (Matthew 5:8 ) I think that at times God allowed certain people with pure hearts toward Him to see Him in His glory yet continue to live on earth for His service and ultimately all whose hearts are right toward God see Him in after death and for eternity.

Stephen was, I believe, an example of one who was pure in heart and not only that, but at the time he saw God he was dying and in transition of leaving the physical and entering the spiritual/heavenly realm.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You have brought up a very appropriate passage of scripture and there are a few other instances where certain individuals did see God and live although in Exodus God said to Moses ...“You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” Exodus 33:20-23

In my previous post I said that humans in their sinful condition cannot see God and live. So there must be some reason why there are a few exceptions and I believe it is Jesus' words which indicate the reason...Blessed are the pure in heart,for they shall see God. (Matthew 5:8 ) I think that at times God allowed certain people with pure hearts toward Him to see Him in His glory yet continue to live on earth for His service and ultimately all whose hearts are right toward God see Him in after death and for eternity.

Stephen was, I believe, an example of one who was pure in heart and not only that, but at the time he saw God he was dying and in transition of leaving the physical and entering the spiritual/heavenly realm.
Okay, fair enough. Obviously, I'd be the last person to insist that under no conditions could a person survive seeing God. But what exactly did Stephen see? How did he determine where Jesus Christ was in relation to the Father?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I never believed in the trinity. I was raised in the Lutheran and then the Congregational Church but I didn't know about the trinity doctrine until I learned about it from the Jehovah's Witnesses. They don't believe, it but they teach it (about it).
Oh, okay. Thanks for the clarification. So did you determine on your own that there were flaws in the Trinity doctrine or was it through talking to the Jehovah's Witnesses that you realized that? (Either way, good for you.)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
One God and there is no one like God.
Well, Hebrews 1:3 states that Jesus is "the express image of his [Father's] person," and John 14:9 Jesus Christ himself says, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father." Since, like me, you don't believe the Father is the Son or the Son the Father, you must have some alternate interpretation for these verses. They are both clearly stating that the Son is very much like the Father.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, Hebrews 1:3 states that Jesus is "the express image of his [Father's] person," and John 14:9 Jesus Christ himself says, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father." Since, like me, you don't believe the Father is the Son or the Son the Father, you must have some alternate interpretation for these verses. They are both clearly stating that the Son is very much like the Father.

Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you might know that the YHVH is God; besides him there is no other.

I agree the son is like The Father. John 5:19 Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise. But Jesus had a beginning. There exists no one and nothing that has no beginning like YHVH has no beginning.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you might know that the YHVH is God; besides him there is no other.

I agree the son is like The Father. John 5:19 Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise. But Jesus had a beginning. There exists no one and nothing that has no beginning like YHVH has no beginning.
I can go along with that. God the Father is clearly supreme in my mind.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Okay, fair enough. Obviously, I'd be the last person to insist that under no conditions could a person survive seeing God. But what exactly did Stephen see? How did he determine where Jesus Christ was in relation to the Father?

Since I'm not Stephen I can't say definitely, but I would speculate that he saw Jesus in His glorified resurrected body which was standing to the right of the Throne. There are other examples of Isaiah and Ezekiel seeing the throne of God.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Oh, okay. Thanks for the clarification. So did you determine on your own that there were flaws in the Trinity doctrine or was it through talking to the Jehovah's Witnesses that you realized that? (Either way, good for you.)

Thank you. I have not thought about it. I cannot hold on to a mystery which is what the trinity is. But it is by listening to many people that I realize I don't like the trinity. It does not make sense. The God I think I know makes sense, makes peace, gives hope..... Does anyone care about how 'Jesus' feels about it? No, I don't think so.
 

Shermana

Heretic

Shermana

Heretic
Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you might know that the YHVH is God; besides him there is no other.

I agree the son is like The Father. John 5:19 Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise. But Jesus had a beginning. There exists no one and nothing that has no beginning like YHVH has no beginning.

Note that in Dt 4:35, it says He is THE god, Ha-Elohim. Makes a big difference. There are other "Elohim", but only one HA Elohim (THE god).
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Since I'm not Stephen I can't say definitely, but I would speculate that he saw Jesus in His glorified resurrected body which was standing to the right of the Throne. There are other examples of Isaiah and Ezekiel seeing the throne of God.
Okay, but would the throne have been empty or would someone have been sitting on it? And what would a person of spirit need with a throne anyway? It just doesn't make any sense to me.
 
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Yes, I addressed that, and that's much different from "Alpha and Omega". Otherwise, saying "Alpha and Omega" and "First and Last" in the same sentence would be redundant. "First and Last", unlike Alpha and Omega, can apply to more than one being. Jesus is the "Firstborn" and "Last Adam".

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/scriptural-debates/153052-holes-trinity-5.html

OK... Is this redundant?
Revelation 21:5-7
5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.”6And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Al′pha and the O‧me′ga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free.7Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.

and isn't this the Father speaking :shrug:
 
Thank you. I have not thought about it. I cannot hold on to a mystery which is what the trinity is. But it is by listening to many people that I realize I don't like the trinity. It does not make sense. The God I think I know makes sense, makes peace, gives hope..... Does anyone care about how 'Jesus' feels about it? No, I don't think so.

This is how Jesus feels about it;
Mathew 28:16
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
 
This is how Jesus feels about it;
Mathew 28:16
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

He did say in the "name of" not in the "names of". One God in three forms.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
He did say in the "name of" not in the "names of". One God in three forms.
What is God's name, by the way? Jehovah? Would that also be the Holy Ghost's name? Apparently they all have the same name in addition to being the same essence.
 

Shermana

Heretic
OK... Is this redundant?
Revelation 21:5-7
5 And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.”6And he said to me: “They have come to pass! I am the Al′pha and the O‧me′ga, the beginning and the end. To anyone thirsting I will give from the fountain of the water of life free.7Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.

and isn't this the Father speaking :shrug:

I forgot that one, my bad.

So as you can see, only the Father ever calls himself "Alpha and Omega".
 

Shermana

Heretic
He did say in the "name of" not in the "names of". One God in three forms.

It actually most likely originally just said "In my name" as in Eusebius's copy, the "Formula" was certainly shoe horned into various other accounts such as the "Church Father writings" (like in the "Long form" of Ignatius's alleged epistles). It is most odd that the passage seems to be coincidentally missing from numerous ancient witnesses.

Is the original wording of Matthew 28:19 the same

Hastings Dictionary of the Bible 1963, page 1015:

"The Trinity.-...is not demonstrable by logic or by Scriptural proofs,...The term Trias was first used by Theophilus of Antioch (c AD 180),...(The term Trinity) not found in Scripture..." "The chief Trinitarian text in the NT is the baptismal formula in Mt 28:19...This late post-resurrection saying, not found in any other Gospel or anywhere else in the NT, has been viewed by some scholars as an interpolation into Matthew. It has also been pointed out that the idea of making disciples is continued in teaching them, so that the intervening reference to baptism with its Trinitarian formula was perhaps a later insertion into the saying. Finally, Eusebius's form of the (ancient) text ("in my name" rather than in the name of the Trinity) has had certain advocates. (Although the Trinitarian formula is now found in the modern-day book of Matthew), this does not guarantee its source in the historical teaching of Jesus. It is doubtless better to view the (Trinitarian) formula as derived from early (Catholic) Christian, perhaps Syrian or Palestinian, baptismal usage (cf Didache 7:1-4), and as a brief summary of the (Catholic) Church's teaching about God, Christ, and the Spirit:..."

A Dictionary of Christ and the Gospels, J. Hastings, 1906, page 170:

(http://www.geocities.com/fdocc3/quotations.htm) and (Various Quotes)

"It is doubted whether the explicit injunction of Matt. 28:19 can be accepted as uttered by Jesus. ...

But the Trinitarian formula in the mouth of Jesus is certainly unexpected."

A History of the Christian Church by Williston Walker (1953)[2]

Williston Walker former Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale University.

Page 61

Professor and Church historian Walker, reviles the true origin and purpose of Matthew 28:19. This Text is the first man-made Roman Catholic Creed that was the prototype for the later Apocryphal[3] Apostles' Creed. Matthew 28:19 was invented along with the Apocryphal Apostles' Creed to counter so-called heretics and Gnostics that baptized in the name of Jesus Christ! Marcion although somewhat mixed up in some of his doctrine still baptized his converts the Biblical way in the name of Jesus Christ. Matthew 28:19 is the first non-Biblical Roman Catholic Creed! The spurious Catholic text of Matthew 28:19 was invented to support the newer triune, Trinity doctrine. Therefore, Matthew 28:19 is not the "Great Commission of Jesus Christ." Matthew 28:19 is the great Catholic hoax! Acts 2:38, Luke 24:47, and 1 Corinthians 6:11 give us the ancient original words and teaching of Yeshua/Jesus! Is it not also strange that Matthew 28:19 is missing from the old manuscripts of Sinaiticus, Curetonianus and Bobiensis?

"While the power of the episcopate and the significance of churches of apostolical (Catholic) foundation was thus greatly enhanced, the Gnostic crisis saw a corresponding development of (man-made non-inspired spurious) creed, at least in the West. Some form of instruction before baptism was common by the middle of the second century. At Rome this developed, apparently, between 150 and 175, and probably in opposition to Marcionite Gnosticism, into an explication of the baptismal formula of Matthew 28:19 the earliest known form of the so-called Apostles Creed." Page 95

We see the historical facts again declared. "With the early disciples generally baptism was "in the name of Jesus Christ." There is no mention of baptism in the name of the Trinity in the New Testament, except in the command attributed to Christ in Matthew 28:19. That text is early, (but not the original) however. It underlies the Apostles' Creed, and the practice recorded (*or interpolated) in the Teaching, (or the Didache) and by Justin. The Christian leaders of the third century retained the recognition of the earlier form, and, in Rome at least, baptism in the name of Christ was deemed valid, if irregular, certainly from the time of Bishop Stephen (254-257)."

THE FORMULA The New Testament is abundantly clear that Christian baptism was always performed in Jesus' name. This is the Formula and the New Testament knows no other! Dr. Boyd grudgingly hints this may be so: "Thus, even if the earliest disciples did in fact baptize in Jesus' name, it should at least be very clear they did not do so with the Oneness significance..." (p. 141).He further states: "The more informed Oneness Pentecostals like to argue that Jesus' Name baptism was practiced not only in Acts, but in the second and third century as well. And, indeed, there does exist a small amount of evidence to this effect." (p. 141)."If the earliest disciples did in fact baptize in Jesus' Name" he says! There's no "if" about it! We have the record, for "it is written." They baptized in no other way! He surely must admit this. He is an educated man, a graduate of Princeton! He reads the Greek; he has an open Bible; he has access to great libraries, he knows what scholarship says in this point. Before we examine the scriptural record, let us hear the conclusion reached by eminent scholars from just such a scriptural examination.

G.R. BEASLEY-MURRAY This Baptist scholar and historian, fluent in classic languages, was commissioned by the Baptist Church to write a definitive volume on water baptism for the benefit of the Baptist Church. His volume is a masterpiece of research. He has left no stone unturned. The work is truly the "be all" and "end all" on the baptismal controversy. He did not consider the evidence "a small amount" for he writes: "There is not one example in the whole New Testament literature of a baptism taking place in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" (G.R. Beasley-Murray, Baptism in the New Testament, p. 82-83).He further proves that baptism was performed with the invocation of Jesus Name, was associated with remission of sins, and followed by a charismatic outpouring of the Holy Spirit. What does that sound like? And this was from a man who has no "axe to grind" -- 2:38 or otherwise!

WILHELM BOUSSET This German historian writes, "It is still essentially a baptism in the Name of Jesus" (Wilhelm Bousett, Kurios Christos, p. 295). He goes on to say, "The Testimony for the wide distribution of the simple baptismal formula (in Jesus name - ed.) down into the second century is so overwhelming that even in Matt. 28:19, the trinitarian formula was only later inserted" (Bousett, p. 295).

DR. ARMITAGE ROBINSON He writes: "In the earliest times, however, baptism appears to have been administered 'in the name of Jesus Christ' (Acts 2:38, 10:48), or 'Lord Jesus' (Acts 8:16; 19:5). And on the use of the single baptismal formula St. Paul's argument in 1 Cor. 1:13 seems to be based..." (Ephesians p. 234ff).To this conclusion of Dr. Armitage is added the endorsement of Dr. Charles Gore, in his masterful work on Christian history and doctrine entitled the "Reconstruction of Belief": "I have expressed disagreement with this in the past, but I desire to retract the disagreement. I think the evidence is fairly convincing that at the beginning only the single name was used. Down to the time of the Schoolmen this view prevailed, see St. Thomas Aquinas, Sum. Th. 3A qu. 66 a. 6" (Gore, 745-746).
 
Why does God creating a body in the womb of a woman makes it God in flesh,

It doesn’t, you’re missing the point. God can miraculously create a body in a womb without the seed of a man and that body not be him in the flesh. But in the CASE of Jesus, it was God in the flesh.

but creating a body out of the womb of a woman doesn't make it God in flesh?

Again, missing the point, yes God COULD incarnate himself in the body of a baby that is conceived by natural father and mother parents, sure, he could do that, he is God. But did he? I don’t believe so, I believe in Jesus CASE, he created the body miraculously without the seed of a man and then incarnated himself in it.

I don't see a reason for this distinction.
Does it mean God never takes any appearance other than Jesus'?


No, God can take on any form he wishes, and take on any appearance he wants or needs to in order to identify with someone. Does it HAVE to be the appearance of this Jesus who lived two thousand years ago? No, it don’t, the point is not about the appearance of this man Jesus who lived around two thousand years ago on earth, that is not what it’s about, it’s about God the father, who is Spirit, and who created the universe, takes on a form, and that form is the perfect fullness of his invisible self. Then God who takes on this form, shows us humans how to live and what we can and should become.

Any more questions?
 
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