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holidays like Easter

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
What obligations did Jesus change that allowed us to insult his Father by adopting customs, beliefs and practices from false religion?

Does grace allow us to sin with impunity then? :confused:

Paul doesn't think so.....
"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition."
(Heb 10:26, 27)

If Christmas trees, like Easter eggs, are the trappings of pagan worship, then God cares. He saw the original and he knows what the symbols are.
If he warned his people NOT to adopt the pagan practices of the nations back then because they were detestable to him, (and the scriptures tell us that God does not change) why would he turn a blind eye today?
If this is your attitude to customs that have been made thoroughly Christian and are no longer pagan, I would feel greatly sorry for the sinner who joins your church. You would always view him in light of his past sins and not in light of his present walk with Christ.
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
The early Christians converted temples into churches and placed Christmas at the same time as a pagan holiday deliberately, to make it easier for people to convert. That doesn't mean that the churches remained temples or that the holidays remained pagan. As a pagan, I'd rather they hadn't done it, but it was a sensible thing to de from their point of view.

The chief dissenting voices here are Jehovah's Witnesses. Since they reject the Christian churches, and the Christian churches reject them, they have as much right to tell the Christians what to do as I have: i.e. none.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
If this is your attitude to customs that have been made thoroughly Christian and are no longer pagan, I would feel greatly sorry for the sinner who joins your church. You would always view him in light of his past sins and not in light of his present walk with Christ.

Why would you feel sorry for those who choose not to sin deliberately?

There is no way to Christianize paganism....you only end up paganizing Christianity. A complete separation is necessary, as the apostle Paul makes clear in the following scripture. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

Paul also said...."?..do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:9-11)

I am confused by what you consider to be a 'Christian'. Is it a pagan who simply changes the names of their festivals to kid themselves that they are now somehow "Christian"? What does it mean to "become" a Christian? Can one be forced at the point of a sword like a lot of pagans who were forced to convert to Catholicism? What constitutes 'conversion' in your estimations?

It is a choice made from the heart, not out of fear and not out of convenience.

Christians must choose not to follow their former course. You cannot live a life of sin and expect Christ to accept you as one of his own. When Paul listed the former sins of those who had become Christians, he said "and yet that is what some of you were". (Past tense) They no longer pursued that lifestyle but cleaned up their lives and showed that they were followers of Christ by imitating his life course. Christ did not celebrate pagan festivals, so why would we?

The moment a person becomes a Christian, deliberate sins can no longer be a part of their life. (Heb 10:26, 27) Christ did not die for deliberate sinners.....he died to cancel out the sin of Adam. When one has erred and is genuinely repentant, they are also covered by Christ's blood. But we cannot deliberately sin and expect God's grace to cover it. :no:
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I think Jesus words are quite pertinent in this discussion:

Mark 2:21 Nobody sews a patch of unshrunk cloth upon an old outer garment; if he does, its full strength pulls from it, the new from the old, and the tear becomes worse.
22 Also, nobody puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the wine bursts the skins, and the wine is lost as well as the skins. But people put new wine into new wineskins.”


Does it not seem that taking an old pagan custom and dressing it up to 'appear' christian is akin to taking an old wineskin and putting new wine into it? And is it not the same thing as taking an old piece of cloth and sewing a new patch onto it?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
The early Christians converted temples into churches and placed Christmas at the same time as a pagan holiday deliberately, to make it easier for people to convert. That doesn't mean that the churches remained temples or that the holidays remained pagan. As a pagan, I'd rather they hadn't done it, but it was a sensible thing to de from their point of view.
Again I have to ask what your definition of a Christian is?

It was not 'Christians' who adopted paganism, it was 'Christendom'. I don't believe that they are one and the same. No true Christian would have tolerated false worship, just as no true prophet of God in Israel would have. So because 'conversion' has nothing to do with ritual, performance or buildings, simply claiming to be a Christian or attending a service in a church doesn't really mean much. Christianity is a state of mind and heart that shuns all the things that God hates. (Psalm 97:10) It isn't something we do...it's who we are.

The chief dissenting voices here are Jehovah's Witnesses. Since they reject the Christian churches, and the Christian churches reject them, they have as much right to tell the Christians what to do as I have: i.e. none.
No one is telling anyone what to do. We have no right to do that, but we are under obligation to publish the truth. What people do with the information is up to them. Once you know the truth, you can no longer plead ignorance.

As for the rejection.....it is good to remember that the first Christians were rejected by their mainstream Jewish brothers as well who claimed to worship the same God. Weren't Christ's followers told to expect the same? ( John 15:19, 20)
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
So people want to ignore holidays and festivals that celebrate Jesus....that doesn't seem very Xian to me.

but do those celebrations really celebrate Jesus?

What do the bunny rabbits represent in relation to Jesus? They are the remnant of sex worship. Do you really think Jesus would be pleased to be remembered in such a way???
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
ok, i asked you how bunny rabbits represent Christ. Can you explain it for me.

You're talking about seasonal symbols...big deal, we have symbols all over the place, the fact that, lets say, you don't decorate or such, it is being suggested to completely drop the celebrations because they 'coincide' with pagan holidays. That, to me, is not what Xianity is all about..We aren't bound to the old physical covenant, likewise, it doesn't matter if Xmas coincides with Saturnalia, etc.
What you're suggesting is actually to make Jesus less important to the faith...
I've studied this subject/
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
alright, i'll take it that there is no relationship between Jesus and bunny rabbits then.


Its really unfortunate, but Jesus actually did institute a celebration for the way he wanted to be commemorated and nobody does it. We celebrate it every year on the anniversary of his death. This celebration was instituted by him at the 'lords evening meal' ... .it didnt include the use of bunny rabbits or eggs either.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
lol, :no:


But its good to ask why we do the things we do, dont you think?

I really think your perspective here is a bit one-sided. I'm not sure if you have really investigated the material that proposes to drop the holidays, I suggest you do so, then come back and tell me if you think it's Christian or pro-Christian.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I really think your perspective here is a bit one-sided. I'm not sure if you have really investigated the material that proposes to drop the holidays, I suggest you do so, then come back and tell me if you think it's Christian or pro-Christian.

I think the christian thing to do is exactly what Christ asked us to do.

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will observe my commandments"

And those commandments dont include bunnies or eggs.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Why would you feel sorry for those who choose not to sin deliberately?

There is no way to Christianize paganism....you only end up paganizing Christianity. A complete separation is necessary, as the apostle Paul makes clear in the following scripture. (2 Cor 6:14-18)

Paul also said...."?..do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:9-11)
Yes, the people have been washed clean of those practices. And so you do not judge them. That sin will always be part of their history, but it isn't a part that we give even so much as a glance to.

And in the same manner, the symbols of the tree and the egg and the rising sun have been baptized and washed clean. It isn't just people that are baptized and washed clean, but entire nations, tribes and tongues. Whatever is sinful about them is washed away and cast out, while whatever is Christian, or possible to be transformed into something Christian, is retained and cleansed of its former impurities.

I am confused by what you consider to be a 'Christian'. Is it a pagan who simply changes the names of their festivals to kid themselves that they are now somehow "Christian"? What does it mean to "become" a Christian?
It means to be washed clean of one's sins, embark on the path of repentance, to walk with Christ, in the Holy Spirit, with the hand of God the Father upon our backs to guide us. It means to imitate Christ, so that people look at us and say, "That person's a little Christ".

Can one be forced at the point of a sword like a lot of pagans who were forced to convert to Catholicism? What constitutes 'conversion' in your estimations?
Anyone who forces people at the sword to convert to Christianity is in grave error. Conversion can never be forced, and any baptisms or sacraments performed under coercion are null and void. Only a conversion borne out of a genuine change of heart towards God can be accepted by any Christian.

Christians must choose not to follow their former course. You cannot live a life of sin and expect Christ to accept you as one of his own. When Paul listed the former sins of those who had become Christians, he said "and yet that is what some of you were". (Past tense) They no longer pursued that lifestyle but cleaned up their lives and showed that they were followers of Christ by imitating his life course. Christ did not celebrate pagan festivals, so why would we?
And we don't celebrate pagan festivals.

The moment a person becomes a Christian, deliberate sins can no longer be a part of their life. (Heb 10:26, 27) Christ did not die for deliberate sinners.....he died to cancel out the sin of Adam. When one has erred and is genuinely repentant, they are also covered by Christ's blood. But we cannot deliberately sin and expect God's grace to cover it. :no:
Right.

I think Jesus words are quite pertinent in this discussion:

Mark 2:21 Nobody sews a patch of unshrunk cloth upon an old outer garment; if he does, its full strength pulls from it, the new from the old, and the tear becomes worse.
22 Also, nobody puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the wine bursts the skins, and the wine is lost as well as the skins. But people put new wine into new wineskins.”


Does it not seem that taking an old pagan custom and dressing it up to 'appear' christian is akin to taking an old wineskin and putting new wine into it? And is it not the same thing as taking an old piece of cloth and sewing a new patch onto it?
Jesus makes all things new. All of creation is for God, not for paganism. If we surrender trees and eggs to pagans, are we not forfeiting vast parts of God's creation to Satan, rather than recovering them for God's kingdom?

but do those celebrations really celebrate Jesus?
Yes.

What do the bunny rabbits represent in relation to Jesus? They are the remnant of sex worship. Do you really think Jesus would be pleased to be remembered in such a way???
EDIT: I stand corrected.

In Early Christian art, hares appeared on reliefs, epitaphs, icons and oil lamps although their significance is not always clear.
The Physiologus, an inexhaustible resource for medieval artists, states that when in danger the rabbit seeks safety by climbing high up rocky cliffs, but when running back down, because of its short front legs, it is quickly caught by its predators.[5] Likewise, according to the teaching of St. Basil, men should seek his salvation in the rock of Christ, rather than descending to seek worldly things and falling into the hands of the devil. The negative view of the rabbit as an unclean animal, which derived from the Old Testament, always remained present for medieval artists and their patrons. Thus the rabbit can have a negative connotation of unbridled sexuality and lust or a positive meaning as a symbol of the steep path to salvation. Whether a representation of a hare in Medieval art represents man falling to his doom or striving for his eternal salvation is therefore open to interpretation, depending on context.



The Hasenfenster (hare windows) in Paderborn Cathedral and in the Muotathal Monastery in Switzerland, in which three hares are depicted with only three ears between them, forming a triangle, can be seen as a symbol of the Trinity, and probably go back to an old symbol for the passage of time. The three hares shown in Albrecht Dürer's woodcut, The Holy Family with the Three Hares (1497), can also be seen as a symbol of the Trinity.
The idea of rabbits as a symbol of vitality, rebirth and resurrection derives from antiquity. This explains their role in connection with Easter, the resurrection of Christ. The unusual presentation in Christian iconography of a Madonna with the Infant Jesus playing with a white rabbit in Titian's Parisian painting, can thus be interpreted christologically. Together with the basket of bread and wine, a symbol of the sacrificial death of Christ, the picture may be interpreted as the resurrection of Christ after death.
The phenomenon of superfetation, where embryos from different menstrual cycles are present in the uterus, results in hares and rabbits being able to give birth seemingly without having been impregnated, which caused them to be seen as symbols of virginity.[6] Rabbits also live underground, an echo of the tomb of Christ.

So you see, Pegg, rabbits are just another part of God's creation that point to Christ. They're not evil or pagan in and of themselves.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
alright, i'll take it that there is no relationship between Jesus and bunny rabbits then.


Its really unfortunate, but Jesus actually did institute a celebration for the way he wanted to be commemorated and nobody does it. We celebrate it every year on the anniversary of his death. This celebration was instituted by him at the 'lords evening meal' ... .it didnt include the use of bunny rabbits or eggs either.
We celebrate the Lord's Supper not just once a year as you do, but weekly. And we celebrate it on Pascha, too.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Shiranui said:
Yes, the people have been washed clean of those practices. And so you do not judge them. That sin will always be part of their history, but it isn't a part that we give even so much as a glance to.
I don't recall saying that we judge anyone on past sins. Past sins have been 'propitiated' (covered) by Jesus' sacrifice. It is what a person does from the time they become Christians that matters. Some have the idea that they can claim Jesus as their Lord and presume upon God's grace as a result. That is not true. God will not forgive unrepentant sinners and he has placed men in the congregations of his people as shepherds to keep the flock spiritually healthy and well fed. Anyone who poses a threat by way of unclean conduct of any sort was to be disciplined or even excommunicated if found to be unrepentant. (1 Cor 5:11-15)

And in the same manner, the symbols of the tree and the egg and the rising sun have been baptized and washed clean.

I do not understand the need to "wash" or "baptize" what is essentially an offensive practice to God, as if that somehow makes it right with Him? Why adopt them in the first place?
The symbols were originally used to represent false deities, violating the first Commandment. Do you believe that God told his people to "wash" the pagan practices of the Canaanites so as to make them acceptable to him? Or were they told NOT to imitate their practices at all? (Deut 18:9) Can you show me where Jesus ever advocated such a thing?

It isn't just people that are baptized and washed clean, but entire nations, tribes and tongues. Whatever is sinful about them is washed away and cast out, while whatever is Christian, or possible to be transformed into something Christian, is retained and cleansed of its former impurities.
I do not believe that what you suggest is possible. There cannot be a "Christian" nation because conversion is not something that happens that way. It happens only in the heart of individuals....one at a time, and their baptism is their personal choice to serve God as a disciple of his Christ. This is why infant baptism is invalid. It is not the act of baptism that counts...it is the individual's choice to live a Christian life from that day on and this must come from the heart.

Families have come to Christ, but never an entire nation. It comes down to an individual's conduct and heart response to the Christian message, so national conversion is impossible.

The only nation that belonged to God as his property was Israel who let God down by their collective conduct. That unacceptable conduct was the end product of poor leadership. God's laws made the Israelites accountable, but there is no way to legislate love for God. Empty ritualistic practices do not hold any merit with God if the heart motivation is not genuine and a person's lifestyle demonstrates no effort to be Christ-like in their behavior. No amount of performance will gain us everlasting life. No amount of insincere confession will do it either.

No matter how you "wash" something unclean in God's eyes, it will only become acceptable to man, not to God, who tolerates the worship of no other gods.

Paul stressed this point...."Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Be′li·al? (the devil) Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty" (2 Cor 6:9-11)

Nothing there about "washing the unclean thing" is there? There is however, a command to "separate" oneself from all such fusing of false worship with true worship. How do you not see it? :shrug:

People are free to do as they wish; God allows us to do that, but be careful about justification. Failure to 'love the truth' and to "take pleasure in unrighteousness" is a trait of those who do not enjoy a good relationship with God. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

All we ask is that people consider the repercussions of 'sharing light with darkness' and 'sharing with unbelievers' in what is "unclean" in God's sight. When God asks us to "separate" from those things, I believe that he means it.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I do not understand the need to "wash" or "baptize" what is essentially an offensive practice to God, as if that somehow makes it right with Him? Why adopt them in the first place?
Are rabbits, trees or eggs an offense to God? Did He not create them and call them good?

The symbols were originally used to represent false deities, violating the first Commandment.
All of creation exists to glorify God and give testimony to Him. Whether or not pagans used various animals or symbols from creation as symbols for their gods is irrelevant. If creation is fundamentally good, and if creation itself bears witness to God, then it is our duty as Christians to reclaim the nature-derived symbols used by pagans and again use these symbols from nature as a testimony to God and His truths.

God came first, then paganism. Bunnies, trees, eggs, etc. were originally symbols that gave testimony to God. Only later did corrupted and fallen man use these God-given creatures to give testimony to their own false gods.

Do you believe that God told his people to "wash" the pagan practices of the Canaanites so as to make them acceptable to him? Or were they told NOT to imitate their practices at all? (Deut 18:9) Can you show me where Jesus ever advocated such a thing?

Families have come to Christ, but never an entire nation.
I assume you've never heard of Armenia or Kievan Rus', then?

No matter how you "wash" something unclean in God's eyes, it will only become acceptable to man, not to God, who tolerates the worship of no other gods.
Alright, and we don't worship any other gods by having Christmas trees or Easter eggs.

Nothing there about "washing the unclean thing" is there? There is however, a command to "separate" oneself from all such fusing of false worship with true worship. How do you not see it? :shrug:
Oh, I see it. It's just that there is no fusing of false worship with true worship in Christianity.

People are free to do as they wish; God allows us to do that, but be careful about justification. Failure to 'love the truth' and to "take pleasure in unrighteousness" is a trait of those who do not enjoy a good relationship with God. (2 Thess 2:9-12)
Alright, and I don't take pleasure in unrighteousness, and I love the truth.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Jesus makes all things new. All of creation is for God, not for paganism. If we surrender trees and eggs to pagans, are we not forfeiting vast parts of God's creation to Satan, rather than recovering them for God's kingdom?

those earthly things serve a purpose here on earth...they dont serve any purpose for heaven. And we shouldn't be giving them such importance that they take the place of Christ.

The problem i see is that in attempting to correct pagan ideas, we've actually solidified pagan ideas by incorporating them into our worship.

God wants paganism (which involves the worship of natural things) to end. He sent Christ into the world so that people could turn their attention to him and leave all their worldly religions behind. Only by forgoing the former can we really embrace the worship of God though Christ.

But if you hold onto those pagan things, then you are not at all free of them.


EDIT: I stand corrected.

In Early Christian art, hares appeared on reliefs, epitaphs, icons and oil lamps although their significance is not always clear.
The Physiologus, an inexhaustible resource for medieval artists, states that when in danger the rabbit seeks safety by climbing high up rocky cliffs, but when running back down, because of its short front legs, it is quickly caught by its predators.[5] Likewise, according to the teaching of St. Basil, men should seek his salvation in the rock of Christ, rather than descending to seek worldly things and falling into the hands of the devil. The negative view of the rabbit as an unclean animal, which derived from the Old Testament, always remained present for medieval artists and their patrons. Thus the rabbit can have a negative connotation of unbridled sexuality and lust or a positive meaning as a symbol of the steep path to salvation. Whether a representation of a hare in Medieval art represents man falling to his doom or striving for his eternal salvation is therefore open to interpretation, depending on context.



The Hasenfenster (hare windows) in Paderborn Cathedral and in the Muotathal Monastery in Switzerland, in which three hares are depicted with only three ears between them, forming a triangle, can be seen as a symbol of the Trinity, and probably go back to an old symbol for the passage of time. The three hares shown in Albrecht Dürer's woodcut, The Holy Family with the Three Hares (1497), can also be seen as a symbol of the Trinity.
The idea of rabbits as a symbol of vitality, rebirth and resurrection derives from antiquity. This explains their role in connection with Easter, the resurrection of Christ. The unusual presentation in Christian iconography of a Madonna with the Infant Jesus playing with a white rabbit in Titian's Parisian painting, can thus be interpreted christologically. Together with the basket of bread and wine, a symbol of the sacrificial death of Christ, the picture may be interpreted as the resurrection of Christ after death.
The phenomenon of superfetation, where embryos from different menstrual cycles are present in the uterus, results in hares and rabbits being able to give birth seemingly without having been impregnated, which caused them to be seen as symbols of virginity.[6] Rabbits also live underground, an echo of the tomb of Christ.

So you see, Pegg, rabbits are just another part of God's creation that point to Christ. They're not evil or pagan in and of themselves.

Its funny, Jesus is called the 'lamb of God', yet people are focussing on bunnys and eggs.

Dont you find it strange?
 
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