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holidays like Easter

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Are rabbits, trees or eggs an offense to God? Did He not create them and call them good?

Yes he did, and when people turn God's creation into symbols of false worship, I imagine that He is somewhat angry about that.

All of creation exists to glorify God and give testimony to Him. Whether or not pagans used various animals or symbols from creation as symbols for their gods is irrelevant.

The golden calf incident springs to mind. What was God's response? "How nice of you to turn me into a calf and have a nice party for me" ? :p or death for all who engaged in this idolatrous worship? Irrelevant? I don't think so.

If creation is fundamentally good, and if creation itself bears witness to God, then it is our duty as Christians to reclaim the nature-derived symbols used by pagans and again use these symbols from nature as a testimony to God and His truths.

Reclaim them? Is that what God told Israel to do in connection with the worship of the Canaanites? I believe that sex was a huge part of their worship. Wasn't sex created by God? When it was used in a depraved way in false worship, it took on a grubby tone and became something for which God's worshippers could be put to death. I don't believe that your argument stands up.

God came first, then paganism. Bunnies, trees, eggs, etc. were originally symbols that gave testimony to God. Only later did corrupted and fallen man use these God-given creatures to give testimony to their own false gods.

Exactly, so why adopt them as though their presence in our worship is not offensive to God? He does not change. Nowhere in scripture will you find either the Israelites or the Christians adopting a pagan form of worship and "washing" it so as to make it acceptable to God. Paul said to "separate" from those things, not celebrate them.

Do you believe that God told his people to "wash" the pagan practices of the Canaanites so as to make them acceptable to him? Or were they told NOT to imitate their practices at all? (Deut 18:9) Can you show me where Jesus ever advocated such a thing?

I assume you've never heard of Armenia or Kievan Rus', then?
No actually, I haven't. What about them? Are we talking converted by Christendom or Christ? Big difference.

Alright, and we don't worship any other gods by having Christmas trees or Easter eggs.
If the Christmas festival is virtually the exact same one that the pagans celebrated, but only the name of the deity has changed, then I think you are mistaken. :(
The evergreen tree was a symbol of life through the darkness of of winter when other trees appeared to die. Magical powers were attributed to it. And the Spring brought all the dead trees magically to life. Eggs were a symbol of life. Rabbits were a symbol of reproduction, glorifying sex. You want to support that nonsense?

Christmas has no connection to Christ at all. He was not born in December. In fact his birthdate is not recorded in the scriptures because Jews did not celebrate birthdays. Recording of birth dates was for the casting of horoscopes. The Jews were forbidden to practice astrology and spiritism.
If Christ did not celebrate his own birthday and did not command us to do so, why would we adopt something purely pagan and pretend that its Christian? :shrug:

Easter is not a word you will find in scripture either and "Pashe" or "Passover" is not something commanded for Christians. It was a commemoration of Israel's being saved from the angel of death by the blood of the Passover Lamb when the last of the ten plagues were brought on Egypt. It is a purely Jewish celebration. Passover is not applicable to Christians because we have the true Passover Lamb whose blood was sacrificed for us. Jesus told us to commemorate that event. He mentioned nothing about his resurrection.

Oh, I see it. It's just that there is no fusing of false worship with true worship in Christianity.

That is just the point. Christendom embraced paganism and simply re-labelled it. Paul said to "separate" from those things, not jump into bed with them. :eek:

You do understand what "separate" means?

Alright, and I don't take pleasure in unrighteousness, and I love the truth.
If we love the truth, we would love what God loves and hate what he hates.

Taking pleasure in a pagan celebration dressed up as Christian is not exactly loving the truth IMO. But you are free to choose to do so.

How can God love what he has already condemned? His command to Israel was not to adopt the pagan practices of the Canaanites....period.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
No...they were actually worshipping it. as an idol.

the worship of the calf was an act of idol worship, true.

So do you think its ok if we have a christian celebration to incorporate the calf into the celebration in some way?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
the worship of the calf was an act of idol worship, true.

So do you think its ok if we have a christian celebration to incorporate the calf into the celebration in some way?

What celebration is that?:confused:

O.k. you see the difference right??
Again, research the anti-holiday material yourself, and then tell me if it is 'Christian".
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
However, all this 'research' is one-sided, other mistakes are overlooked...
It doesn't seem entirely kosher.:no:

hmmmm

ok, what about if we just rename 'Christmas' with 'Christs GoldCalfday' so that we can be absolutely confident that golden calfs will never be worshiped again?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
with disagreeing.

I see.

Well, i think we can both agree that its 'kosher' to introduce a pagan symbol/idol/custom and use it for christian worship.

Easter is Ishtar - a babylonian goddess representing fertility and symbolised by bunnies and eggs.

I agree that these things should not have EVER become part of the christian religion.

;)
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
And the alternative??....no holidays to celebrate Jesus...


No thanks.;)

Jesus asked us to celebrate his death. So there is a celebration, but it doesnt include the false goddess Ishtar or the symbols belonging to her sex rites.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Yes he did, and when people turn God's creation into symbols of false worship, I imagine that He is somewhat angry about that.
And if that's the case, then I imagine that God is rather happy when we take God's creation and put it back to its original intent--to testify of Him, not to be worshipped or used as symbols of false worship.

This is what we Christians have always done. We get rid of false worship among the peoples of the world, and bring the parts of God creation being used as symbols of false worship, BACK to giving testimony of Him. We are correcting the misuse of these parts of God's creation, not misusing them ourselves.

The golden calf incident springs to mind. What was God's response? "How nice of you to turn me into a calf and have a nice party for me" ? :p or death for all who engaged in this idolatrous worship? Irrelevant? I don't think so.
And tell me the last time a Christian worshipped an egg, bunny or tree? Oh right, there never has been a time. It is irrelevant, because no one worships bunnies, eggs, trees or anything else. We Christians worship God and God alone, not parts of His creation. We are not idolaters, nor has Christianity ever been idolatrous.

It baffles me how you're blind to this fact.

Reclaim them? Is that what God told Israel to do in connection with the worship of the Canaanites? I believe that sex was a huge part of their worship. Wasn't sex created by God? When it was used in a depraved way in false worship, it took on a grubby tone and became something for which God's worshippers could be put to death. I don't believe that your argument stands up.
Yes, even sex is reclaimed. Sex is put back into its proper context of being that which unites a man and a woman in marriage, and opens up the way for a new human being to be born into this world.

Or do you think sex is pagan now, too?

Exactly, so why adopt them as though their presence in our worship is not offensive to God? He does not change. Nowhere in scripture will you find either the Israelites or the Christians adopting a pagan form of worship and "washing" it so as to make it acceptable to God. Paul said to "separate" from those things, not celebrate them.
And we don't have pagan forms of worship in Christianity. We don't have temple prostitution, child sacrifice, self-mutilation, idols that we bow down to, or anything else like that. Christian worship is derived straight out of Jewish worship.

No actually, I haven't. What about them? Are we talking converted by Christendom or Christ? Big difference.
Converted by Christ through Christendom.

If the Christmas festival is virtually the exact same one that the pagans celebrated, but only the name of the deity has changed, then I think you are mistaken. :(
An honest, non-rhetorical question: Have you ever been to a Christmas service before? Have you ever been in either a Catholic Midnight Mass or an Orthodox Liturgy of the Nativity?

If not, then what makes you think you have the faintest idea of how Christmas is actually celebrated? Songs about a jolly old fat man with reindeer are unique to America. Christmas trees with lights and ornaments and presents underneath them weren't a big thing until a few hundred years ago. Even gift-giving is typically done on St. Nicholas Day in most other countries, and not on Christmas. Christmas is reserved specifically for celebrating Christ's birth.

The evergreen tree was a symbol of life through the darkness of of winter when other trees appeared to die. Magical powers were attributed to it. And the Spring brought all the dead trees magically to life. Eggs were a symbol of life.
Don't you see how this points to Christ being the Life in the midst of a dead world, come to save us?

Rabbits were a symbol of reproduction, glorifying sex.
Their living underground also recalls Christ's three-day sojourn in the tomb before He rose. Their ability to run up a slope but inability to run down it tells us to be careful in our journey of salvation--as long as we keep climbing up to God, we're fine. But if we turn around and start on the path towards unrighteousness, we will fall and die.

You want to support that nonsense?
I guess you really don't see Christ in anything or anyone, then. How sad.

Christmas has no connection to Christ at all. He was not born in December. In fact his birthdate is not recorded in the scriptures because Jews did not celebrate birthdays. Recording of birth dates was for the casting of horoscopes. The Jews were forbidden to practice astrology and spiritism.
If Christ did not celebrate his own birthday and did not command us to do so, why would we adopt something purely pagan and pretend that its Christian? :shrug:
Because we celebrate Christ's coming to save us. We celebrate His coming into a sin-ridden world, casting down the demons and freeing us from sin and death, giving us the Truth. Christ is the true Sun of Righteousness (Malachi 4:2), not all these other false pagan gods invented by man. That's also the reason we split off the feast of Christ's birth from the feast of His circumcision, the adoration of the Magi and His baptism by St. John, all held jointly on January 6th. We placed the feast of Christ's birth on December 25th to remove the temptation of pagan converts to Christianity to go and slip back into their old ways, and to take a stand against a pagan world.

Easter is not a word you will find in scripture either and "Pashe" or "Passover" is not something commanded for Christians. It was a commemoration of Israel's being saved from the angel of death by the blood of the Passover Lamb when the last of the ten plagues were brought on Egypt. It is a purely Jewish celebration. Passover is not applicable to Christians because we have the true Passover Lamb whose blood was sacrificed for us. Jesus told us to commemorate that event. He mentioned nothing about his resurrection.
And the reason WHY we call Pascha "Pascha" is because Christ is our Pascha.

That is just the point. Christendom embraced paganism and simply re-labelled it. Paul said to "separate" from those things, not jump into bed with them. :eek:
Not so, nor do you have any proof of this being the case.

You do understand what "separate" means?
Yes. It appears you don't understand Christian celebrations, though.

If we love the truth, we would love what God loves and hate what he hates.
And such is the case with me.

Taking pleasure in a pagan celebration dressed up as Christian is not exactly loving the truth IMO. But you are free to choose to do so.
And I don't do that.

How can God love what he has already condemned? His command to Israel was not to adopt the pagan practices of the Canaanites....period.
So bunnies, trees and eggs will forever be lost to paganism, then? Such a shame to know that humanity can completely and utterly corrupt God's creation beyond all repair.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Jesus asked us to celebrate his death. So there is a celebration, but it doesnt include the false goddess Ishtar or the symbols belonging to her sex rites.
Absolutely nothing related to the worship of Ishtar is part of a Pascha celebration. Have you ever even seen a Pascha celebration before?

those earthly things serve a purpose here on earth...they dont serve any purpose for heaven. And we shouldn't be giving them such importance that they take the place of Christ.
Who's replacing Christ with anything? All I'm saying is that all of creation points to the reality of Christ and what He does for us.

The problem i see is that in attempting to correct pagan ideas, we've actually solidified pagan ideas by incorporating them into our worship.
And what pagan ideas might those be?

God wants paganism (which involves the worship of natural things) to end. He sent Christ into the world so that people could turn their attention to him and leave all their worldly religions behind. Only by forgoing the former can we really embrace the worship of God though Christ.
And who's worshipping bunnies, eggs or trees? No one.

But if you hold onto those pagan things, then you are not at all free of them.
And I'm not holding onto paganism or pagan things.

Its funny, Jesus is called the 'lamb of God', yet people are focussing on bunnys and eggs.
Walk into any Catholic Mass, listen in on any Orthodox Proskomedia service or Matins service or Good Friday Lamentations service, have a look at any Orthodox Easter basket, you will see many references to Jesus being the Lamb of God.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Absolutely nothing related to the worship of Ishtar is part of a Pascha celebration. Have you ever even seen a Pascha celebration before?

Who's replacing Christ with anything? All I'm saying is that all of creation points to the reality of Christ and what He does for us.

And what pagan ideas might those be?

The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop: “What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven, whose name, .*.*. as found by Layard on the Assyrian monuments, is Ishtar. .*.*. Such is the history of Easter. The popular observances that still attend the period of its celebration amply confirm the testimony of history as to its Babylonian character. The hot cross buns of Good Friday, and the dyed eggs of Pasch or Easter Sunday, figured in the Chaldean rites just as they do now.”—(New York, 1943), pp. 103, 107,*108

now compare the words of God found in Jeremiah in reference to the time when Isrealites were practicing the customs of another religion:

7:17 Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The sons are gathering wood, the fathers are lighting the fire, and the wives are kneading dough in order to make sacrificial cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and they are pouring out drink offerings to other gods to offend me. 19 ‘But am I the one they are hurting?’ declares Jehovah. ‘Is it not they themselves, to their own shame?’ 20 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says, ‘Look! My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place...

All im saying is that i think people really need to examine the things they are including in their worship.... it may seem harmless to you, you may even think its got nothing to do with the religion where it originates from, but that could be dangerous thinking. God is 'not one to be mocked' as the bible says.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop: “What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven, whose name, .*.*. as found by Layard on the Assyrian monuments, is Ishtar. .*.*. Such is the history of Easter. The popular observances that still attend the period of its celebration amply confirm the testimony of history as to its Babylonian character. The hot cross buns of Good Friday, and the dyed eggs of Pasch or Easter Sunday, figured in the Chaldean rites just as they do now—(New York, 1943), pp. 103, 107,*108
Except, "Easter" isn't called that in the Middle East. Not even the Chaldean people mentioned by the author call it "Easter". The name "Easter" has Germanic origins, not Chaldean. And even then, only a handful of Germanic languages call it some variant of "Easter"--English and German (Easter and Ostern, respectively) are the only two I can think of at the moment. All of the Scandinavian languages refer to it as "Paska", and the Dutch call it "Pasen".

Also, hate to burst your bubble, but I've never even seen a hot cross bun myself before. Not growing up, not at the store, not at my family's Easter celebrations, and not in anyone's Pascha basket. They seem to have originated in the UK. And no one seems to be quite sure what pre-Christian history the buns had, if any. Some say Anglo-Saxon origins (this seems to be the most likely), some say Greek (I don't find this likely, otherwise the Greek Orthodox would have hot cross buns, and they most certainly do not), and some say Middle Eastern (same problem as the Greek theory).

Also, Pascha eggs are traditionally decorated red in the Orthodox tradition, and this is the most ancient practice--the red calls to mind the blood shed by Christ on the Cross, and the egg reminds us of our new life in Christ through His Resurrection.

now compare the words of God found in Jeremiah in reference to the time when Isrealites were practicing the customs of another religion:

7:17 Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The sons are gathering wood, the fathers are lighting the fire, and the wives are kneading dough in order to make sacrificial cakes to the Queen of Heaven, and they are pouring out drink offerings to other gods to offend me. 19 ‘But am I the one they are hurting?’ declares Jehovah. ‘Is it not they themselves, to their own shame?’ 20 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says, ‘Look! My anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place...
And God commands cakes to be made for Him as part of certain sacrifices as well. The problem here is making these cakes as sacrifices to an idol, not making cakes in and of itself.

All im saying is that i think people really need to examine the things they are including in their worship.... it may seem harmless to you, you may even think its got nothing to do with the religion where it originates from, but that could be dangerous thinking. God is 'not one to be mocked' as the bible says.
And I have examined them thoroughly. These fears of yours are without merit, let me assure you. :)
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
And if that's the case, then I imagine that God is rather happy when we take God's creation and put it back to its original intent--to testify of Him, not to be worshipped or used as symbols of false worship.
But they are symbols of false worship. You can't use them in a thinly veiled pagan celebration, adopted by the church centuries ago, relabelled, and then pretend that you have "washed" them.

This is what we Christians have always done. We get rid of false worship among the peoples of the world, and bring the parts of God creation being used as symbols of false worship, BACK to giving testimony of Him. We are correcting the misuse of these parts of God's creation, not misusing them ourselves.
The only way to eliminate false worship is to "separate" yourself from it. What does it mean to "quit touching the unclean thing"? The church did not do that. It embraced the unclean thing and renamed it.

I see nothing in the history of Israel to back up what you say.
And "Christians" have never done what you are suggesting. Christendom has.

I see no similarity between the Christianity that Jesus taught and the power hungry juggernaut that the Roman Catholic Church became.

And tell me the last time a Christian worshipped an egg, bunny or tree?
That would be when Easter eggs were given out by the Easter bunny as a symbol of Christ's resurrection on Easter Sunday a few weeks ago.
It was when Christmas trees were decorated and used as a symbol of the season of Christ's birthday celebration, except that Christ himself did not command us to celebrate either of those occasion as part of our worship.

We are told 'not to go beyond the things that are written'. The Jews did not choose their own festivals. After the golden calf incident, they were told what festivals to hold and every detail on when and how to celebrate them was provided by God. They did not step outside of that arrangement.

We are not idolaters, nor has Christianity ever been idolatrous.

It baffles me how you're blind to this fact.
It baffles me that Catholic people cannot see the idolatry in their worship. Since God's command was not to "make an image of anything" to use in worship, it is the "making" of any kind of image that breaks God's law on idolatry. No images means no images. No statues, no icons, no crosses.

Yes, even sex is reclaimed. Sex is put back into its proper context of being that which unites a man and a woman in marriage, and opens up the way for a new human being to be born into this world.
Um......you must live in a different world to me. The last time I looked, most people were not bothering to get married, they just move in together and have kids. New life comes into the world through fornication. Adultery and divorce is rife. Churches are full of these people. Who really cares about what God says?

And we don't have pagan forms of worship in Christianity. We don't have temple prostitution, child sacrifice, self-mutilation, idols that we bow down to, or anything else like that. Christian worship is derived straight out of Jewish worship.

Except that the trappings of Jewish worship were not retained.
There was no priesthood, no temple, no distinctive robes or clergy class in first century Christianity.

Converted by Christ through Christendom.
I do not believe that Christ has ever supported Christendom. IMO, when bloodshed entered the church, Christ left the building.

An honest, non-rhetorical question: Have you ever been to a Christmas service before? Have you ever been in either a Catholic Midnight Mass or an Orthodox Liturgy of the Nativity?
I was an Anglican for the first 20 years of my life. I did what many in Christendom did, I celebrated Christmas and Easter along with many others in my church. Once I learned the truth about the origins of these celebrations however, it was easy to walk away from them.

I have only ever attended one Catholic Mass in my life and I am sorry to say that I found it to be empty and meaningless ritual. The priest swigging copious amounts of wine disturbed me greatly. :sorry1:

If not, then what makes you think you have the faintest idea of how Christmas is actually celebrated? Songs about a jolly old fat man with reindeer are unique to America. Christmas trees with lights and ornaments and presents underneath them weren't a big thing until a few hundred years ago. Even gift-giving is typically done on St. Nicholas Day in most other countries, and not on Christmas. Christmas is reserved specifically for celebrating Christ's birth.
We were never told to celebrate Christ's birth. His birthdate is not recorded in scripture. It was not something Jews did. Only pagans celebrated birthdays.

I guess you really don't see Christ in anything or anyone, then. How sad.
I see Christ in the truth. I see it in the work he assigned us to do....the one he said he would support to the end. (Matt 28:19, 20) I do not see Christ being party to anything connected to false worship in any way. What is sad is that people think Christ would compromise. Never once did he do that.

We placed the feast of Christ's birth on December 25th to remove the temptation of pagan converts to Christianity to go and slip back into their old ways, and to take a stand against a pagan world.
Now how do you figure that? The Roman Saturnalia was celebrated on the same December date, with exactly the same feasting and gift giving, and merry making as Christmas has to this day. Sun worship is inextricably linked to Roman Catholicism. The trappings are still in evidence as any Google search will reveal.

And the reason WHY we call Pascha "Pascha" is because Christ is our Pascha.
The Passover was exclusively Jewish. Christ is the true Passover Lamb and that is why he asked that his death be commemorated as a memorial of that event.
Easter is not Passover. It has nothing to do with Passover. There is no Easter in scripture.

So bunnies, trees and eggs will forever be lost to paganism, then? Such a shame to know that humanity can completely and utterly corrupt God's creation beyond all repair.

That is a very strange thing to say IMO. Since rabbits were classified as "unclean" animals, they were never part of God's worship in the first place. They exist along with myriad other creatures that God created...nothing special about them.

Trees, particularly evergreen trees were believed by pagans to have magical properties, so again these trees did not figure in God's worship.

Eggs were good to eat, but they had no place in the worship that God prescribed for his people....they were held as pagan symbols of fertility, yet Christendom wants to retain their status and re-label these false religious symbols as if they are somehow less offensive to God because of the new label.

I doubt I will ever understand your justification, but that is your choice. I choose to "quit touching the unclean thing". I personally find these celebrations repugnant. :(
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
But they are symbols of false worship. You can't use them in a thinly veiled pagan celebration, adopted by the church centuries ago, relabelled, and then pretend that you have "washed" them.

The only way to eliminate false worship is to "separate" yourself from it. What does it mean to "quit touching the unclean thing"? The church did not do that. It embraced the unclean thing and renamed it.
Are eggs, trees, rabbits, etc. parts of God's creation that He called good? Or were they created by Satan to misguide us?

If they are called good by God and created by Him, then there is nothing wrong with using them to point to their creator. I'm sure you have no problem using the beauty of God's creation as evidence of Him. If this is the case, then there is likewise nothing wrong with using rabbits, eggs and trees to point to God and what He has done for us. On the contrary, we would be expected to use eggs, trees and rabbits to point to God, just like we do with all of God's creation.

If they are created by Satan, then are you ascribing the power of creation to Satan? Are you ascribing to Satan the power to irrevocable pollute and taint massive parts of God's creation?

I see nothing in the history of Israel to back up what you say.
That's because the Israelites were kept separate while the Messiah was still yet to come. Once the Messiah came, the middle wall of division was broken down. There is now neither Greek nor Jew.

And "Christians" have never done what you are suggesting. Christendom has.
Then I guess Christians didn't exist from roughly the year 90 AD until the late 1800's with the founding of the Bible Study Movement, according to you?

That would be when Easter eggs were given out by the Easter bunny as a symbol of Christ's resurrection on Easter Sunday a few weeks ago.
Oh, really? People paid homage to the easter bunny and the eggs as if they were gods? The bunny and eggs were worshipped? Of course not. Even you yourself said that the eggs and the bunny served as symbols of Christ's Resurrection. No one was worshipping them. They were using them as reminders and symbols.

It was when Christmas trees were decorated and used as a symbol of the season of Christ's birthday celebration, except that Christ himself did not command us to celebrate either of those occasion as part of our worship.
So the trees were worshipped as gods? Of course not. Even you yourself said that the trees commemorate Christ's birth. They are symbols and reminders, nothing more.

The Jews did not choose their own festivals. After the golden calf incident, they were told what festivals to hold and every detail on when and how to celebrate them was provided by God. They did not step outside of that arrangement.
And what makes you think Christianity and Judaism are the same in that regard? There are no commands within the Bible as to when Christians should worship or even as to how often we should worship, or even what our worship should consist of. All we have within the Bible is contextual signs as to what the Christians themselves just organically and naturally started doing.

It baffles me that Catholic people cannot see the idolatry in their worship.
As an ex-Catholic, I'm going to posit that it's because there is no idolatry in their worship.

Since God's command was not to "make an image of anything" to use in worship, it is the "making" of any kind of image that breaks God's law on idolatry. No images means no images. No statues, no icons, no crosses.
So where does that leave Solomon's Temple in 1 Kings 6? Where does that leave the cherubim atop the ark of the covenant?

Um......you must live in a different world to me. The last time I looked, most people were not bothering to get married, they just move in together and have kids. New life comes into the world through fornication. Adultery and divorce is rife. Churches are full of these people. Who really cares about what God says?
This is a problem with individual sin, not with Christian teaching. Sex within a Christian context is between a married husband and wife. Any deviation from that in today's society is irrelevant, and situational. In my community, for example, everyone gets a job and gets married before they have kids. I don't know anyone who does otherwise. The whole "cohabitation" thing to me would only ever be a means of saving money and seeing how I and my girlfriend/fiance would work together in taking care of a home. I would certainly never have children before getting married.

Except that the trappings of Jewish worship were not retained.
There was no priesthood, no temple, no distinctive robes or clergy class in first century Christianity.
The system of standardized and liturgical prayers sure was, and there most certainly was a priesthood. I've proven this in other threads, even on this very DIR. If you want to review them, go and find them.

I do not believe that Christ has ever supported Christendom. IMO, when bloodshed entered the church, Christ left the building.
Glad to see He let the gates of Hades prevail against the Church and that the Holy Spirit failed to lead us into all truth. Two broken promises. Nice job, Jesus!

I was an Anglican for the first 20 years of my life. I did what many in Christendom did, I celebrated Christmas and Easter along with many others in my church. Once I learned the truth about the origins of these celebrations however, it was easy to walk away from them.
Did you ever know what Christmas and Easter were all about before you learned the so-called "truth" about their origins?

I have only ever attended one Catholic Mass in my life and I am sorry to say that I found it to be empty and meaningless ritual. The priest swigging copious amounts of wine disturbed me greatly. :sorry1:
And you drew your conclusions about a church of 1 billion people with a 2,000-year history after ever having gone to only one Mass? :faint:

Now how do you figure that? The Roman Saturnalia was celebrated on the same December date, with exactly the same feasting and gift giving, and merry making as Christmas has to this day.
Maybe you weren't paying attention when I said that gift-giving isn't actually a part of Christmas. It isn't in any Orthodox country, nor is it in most Catholic countries. Gift-giving is normally done on St. Nicholas Day, December 6th.

And like it or not, pagans weren't the only ones that had feasts. So did Jews then and today, and therefore, so do Christians, then and today.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Sun worship is inextricably linked to Roman Catholicism. The trappings are still in evidence as any Google search will reveal.
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: Yep, you know absolutely nothing about Catholicism.

Take it from a guy who was Catholic for 3-4 years and learned university-level Church history and theology: There isn't any pagan sun worship in Catholicism, or any trappings thereof. I know the links you would want to sent me, and they're all complete bogus. It's clear that not one of the people making those articles knows the first thing about Catholicism.

If you want someone who knows what they're talking about to explain Catholic worship to you, you can feel free to ask the folks in the Catholicism DIR.

The Passover was exclusively Jewish. Christ is the true Passover Lamb and that is why he asked that his death be commemorated as a memorial of that event.
Great, you said the same exact thing I did.

Easter is not Passover. It has nothing to do with Passover. There is no Easter in scripture.
I think you need to go and do some research about what Easter actually is. And stay away from your conspiracy theory stuff. Actually look up some good Christian sources. I recommend Catholic, Orthodox or Anglican stuff.

Here's a hint: Easter (more commonly known as "Pascha") is the fulfillment of the Jewish Passover. Jewish Passover is a foreshadowing of Christian Pascha.

That is a very strange thing to say IMO. Since rabbits were classified as "unclean" animals, they were never part of God's worship in the first place. They exist along with myriad other creatures that God created...nothing special about them.
Rabbits being unclean only had to do with eating them, not because there was something inherently evil about them. If they weren't good, then God wouldn't have created them in the first place.

Trees, particularly evergreen trees were believed by pagans to have magical properties, so again these trees did not figure in God's worship.
So God defines how He should be worshipped solely as an antithesis to how pagans worshipped? I'm sorry, but it's the other way around. Pagan worship is a corruption and deviation of Godly worship.

Eggs were good to eat, but they had no place in the worship that God prescribed for his people....they were held as pagan symbols of fertility, yet Christendom wants to retain their status and re-label these false religious symbols as if they are somehow less offensive to God because of the new label.
So, lemme see if I have this straight...

1: God creates many animals which lay eggs.
2: God calls this part of His creation (eggs, egg-layers) "good."
3: Many hundreds if not thousands or millions of years later, some misguided pagans begin using eggs as symbols of their worship.
4: Because of 3, God changes His mind about eggs and now views them as solely evil, pagan and tainted?

Does this progression make any sense to you? Are we humans capable of entirely and utterly corrupting God's creation beyond all salvation? Then you accuse God of being incapable of redeeming His creation.

I doubt I will ever understand your justification, but that is your choice. I choose to "quit touching the unclean thing". I personally find these celebrations repugnant. :(
I find your demonization of many parts of God's creation appalling. You seem to worry more about what you think is pagan and evil than what is godly and helpful on our journey of salvation.

Take it from a guy who used to beat himself up over sin: Spending all your time looking at what is sinful doesn't help you get to what is holy. You just end up mired in muck and filth, unable to escape that which you condemn.
 
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