Homosexual Question

[Draka]

Eselam, I'm just wondering how you would react if the very possible scientific explanation for homosexuals was proven. If it was proven to you that being born homosexual is just like being born left handed. Everything about us is determined in the brain, including our sexuality. Thing is, there are certain areas of the brain which normally pick up the functions of certain attributes. One being right handed. However, the different areas of the brain form at different rates while in the womb and if, for some very natural reason, a person's part of the brain that determines dominancy stops forming in the left side of the brain before it is finishes determining dominancy, then the equal part of the brain on the right side will pick it up and, ta da...a left handed person. If dominancy started to be determined on the left side but had to finish on the right...ta da....ambidextrous.

Sexuality can very easily be determined the same way. Since our emotions and sexual attraction are based in the brain, AND it has been scientifically proven that a gay man's brain responds the same as a straight woman's brain and a gay woman's brain like that of a straight man's brain, it is very reasonable to assume that sexual orientation is established and determined in much the exact same way as whether a person is left or right handed is determined. Different parts of the brain picking up where another couldn't finish.

Now, you can teach a person who is left-handed to use their right hand. Matter of fact they use to force left-handed children to use their right hand in schools many years ago. However, that never changes the fact that they are left handed and their brain is hardwired for them to be so. A homosexual may force themselves to act straight, to marry the opposite sex, even force themselves to somehow have sex with the oppposite sex, however...they are still homosexual. No amount of denial can change that.

Have you seen the brain scan comparisons between gays and straights at all? Seriously, if you were to personally be presented with the evidence that homosexuals are born homosexual, would that change your opinion in any way?

 

[dragynfly0515]

and whats the punishment for a rapist?

i don't see a connection between homosexuality and rape, no.

Satanism doesn't have prescribed punishments for anything. I live in a federal republic where the government is responsible for enforcing the law. The people, through their elected representatives, make the laws and penalties for breaking them. There are no religious texts or religious leaders that control the actions of the government, as in a theocracy. (Though there are many that would like to try!)

:candle:
Crys

 

[Madhuri]

well as you know adultery is punishable with death, so a marriage between 2 men is not allowed in islam. and if 2 men have sex that means they have commited adultery. so there goes the punishment.

i am sure there are many more reasons also, but thats just the obvious one. surely now you agree that the ruling on homosexuality is not due to some blind belief. just like every nation islam has it's own laws.

I would like to ask, does the Q'uran explain why death is justified in any of these cases?
It is difficult for me to understand because of my western upbringing where a person is only put to death (in some countries, not here) if they are a serious physical danger to other people (ie/ murderer). Otherwise, since killing any person is considered to be such an abominable act (hence why muder is a serious offense) westerners usually are against killing anybody as punishment. This way of thinking/percieving is part of why Islam recieves so much negative reactions from westerners because we see killing for almost nay reason as an abominable act.

 

[Gharib]

Eselam, I'm just wondering how you would react if the very possible scientific explanation for homosexuals was proven. If it was proven to you that being born homosexual is just like being born left handed. Everything about us is determined in the brain, including our sexuality. Thing is, there are certain areas of the brain which normally pick up the functions of certain attributes. One being right handed. However, the different areas of the brain form at different rates while in the womb and if, for some very natural reason, a person's part of the brain that determines dominancy stops forming in the left side of the brain before it is finishes determining dominancy, then the equal part of the brain on the right side will pick it up and, ta da...a left handed person. If dominancy started to be determined on the left side but had to finish on the right...ta da....ambidextrous.

i understand you using the right/left handed example to explain homosexuality, but unfortunately the example fails. i do, however, agree that everything has to do with the brain. but the reason your example fails is because if i was left handed, i can change to my right hand without a problem. i broke my right hand once in grade 7 i think and i used my left hand for the 3 weeks my right hand needed to heal.
where as a heterosexual cannot dislike women and like men. i dare any heterosexual to become homosexual, but no one can do that. so we come to the conclusion that homosexuality has something to do with the brain, it is either natural or it is caused by something at an early age. and i am of the oppinion that it is caused or is a result of something at a childs young age. there have been cases of homosexuals becoming heterosexual, so this proves that homosexuality is something that can be reversed to heterosexuality, and every human has a natural arrangement by god, just like a child cannot be born unless it inside the womb for a specific amount of time.

Sexuality can very easily be determined the same way. Since our emotions and sexual attraction are based in the brain, AND it has been scientifically proven that a gay man's brain responds the same as a straight woman's brain and a gay woman's brain like that of a straight man's brain, it is very reasonable to assume that sexual orientation is established and determined in much the exact same way as whether a person is left or right handed is determined. Different parts of the brain picking up where another couldn't finish.

i myself do not know much about homosexuality in women, but i do know about it in men. i have stated somewhere in RF a number of times that a homosexual male ends up responding to the likes of women. i guess i was right about that.

Now, you can teach a person who is left-handed to use their right hand. Matter of fact they use to force left-handed children to use their right hand in schools many years ago. However, that never changes the fact that they are left handed and their brain is hardwired for them to be so. A homosexual may force themselves to act straight, to marry the opposite sex, even force themselves to somehow have sex with the oppposite sex, however...they are still homosexual. No amount of denial can change that.

i do not know about how to make a homosexual heterosexual and leave their homosexual feelings and ideas behind. but i am sure that if a homosexual wanted to become heterosexual completely then i am sure that can be done. it cannot be that hard.

Have you seen the brain scan comparisons between gays and straights at all? Seriously, if you were to personally be presented with the evidence that homosexuals are born homosexual, would that change your opinion in any way?

no i haven't seen any brain scans, i do know that it has to do with the brain. if a females brain is kind of different to a males brain, then i would assume a homosexuals brain would be very similar to that of a woman. i don't know how seeing any scans would change my oppinion though coz i already know that a homosexuals brain may look different to that of a man and would respond to things women would?
so far what i have said or know seems to be aligned with what science says. and homosexuals are not born homosexual. they are born heterosexual but their early childhood years may affect the brain and so they end up homosexual after a while, some people realise their homosexuality at an earlier age, some at a latter age and some never do. it's all got to do with the childhood and it's effect.

 

[Gharib]

As a bisexual, I find it disturbing that the idea of killing someone based on their sexual orientation is seriously being discussed. I can't imagine worshipping a god that condones such behaviour.

:candle:
Crys

first you said the above to me concerning the death punishment for a homosexual. then when i asked you about your religions view on rape you said

Satanism promotes individuality, autonomy and freedom of thought. Obviously rape would violate someone's autonomy. Why do you ask? Do you see a connection between homosexuality and rape?

:candle:
Crys

and when i asked you about the punishemtn for rape you said

Satanism doesn't have prescribed punishments for anything. I live in a federal republic where the government is responsible for enforcing the law. The people, through their elected representatives, make the laws and penalties for breaking them. There are no religious texts or religious leaders that control the actions of the government, as in a theocracy. (Though there are many that would like to try!)

:candle:
Crys

i find it disturbing that a religion that says "rape would violate someone's autonomy" has no punishment for a rapist. do you know how much a rape victim suffers? and yet your religion has no prescribed punishment for a rapist. well that would explain why you find any kind of a punishment disturbing, your religion promotes crime and doesn't punish people.

 

[methylatedghosts]

i understand you using the right/left handed example to explain homosexuality, but unfortunately the example fails. i do, however, agree that everything has to do with the brain. but the reason your example fails is because if i was left handed, i can change to my right hand without a problem. i broke my right hand once in grade 7 i think and i used my left hand for the 3 weeks my right hand needed to heal.
where as a heterosexual cannot dislike women and like men. i dare any heterosexual to become homosexual, but no one can do that. so we come to the conclusion that homosexuality has something to do with the brain, it is either natural or it is caused by something at an early age. and i am of the oppinion that it is caused or is a result of something at a childs young age. there have been cases of homosexuals becoming heterosexual, so this proves that homosexuality is something that can be reversed to heterosexuality, and every human has a natural arrangement by god, just like a child cannot be born unless it inside the womb for a specific amount of time.

Firstly, I don't quite understand why it's possible to change from homo- to heterosexuality, but not the other way around. I would suggest that it's not something that can be "learnt", and that it is entirely natural for people to be homo-, bi- or heterosexual - there are many cases of homosexual and bisexual activity within the animal kingdom. I myself do not recall ever being strictly heterosexual.

What I find a little amusing is you claim that "i dare any heterosexual to become homosexual, but no one can do that.". Yet you base your argument on everyone being heterosexual but changing to homosexual at some point during childhood. This would suggest that a heterosexual CAN become homosexual, should they choose to. You can't have it both ways, Eselam, it's one or the other. Either everyone can change, or no-one can!

I cannot choose who I find attractive, I cannot choose those I fall in love with. The only choice I really have is whether or not I act upon it

 

[dragynfly0515]

first you said the above to me concerning the death punishment for a homosexual. then when i asked you about your religions view on rape you said



and when i asked you about the punishemtn for rape you said



i find it disturbing that a religion that says "rape would violate someone's autonomy" has no punishment for a rapist. do you know how much a rape victim suffers? and yet your religion has no prescribed punishment for a rapist. well that would explain why you find any kind of a punishment disturbing, your religion promotes crime and doesn't punish people.

I find it interesting that when I commented on your religion's view of homosexuality you responded by talking about rape, as if the two had anything to do with each other. Then I responded to your question about rape, and pointed out that my religion is against rape as it violates that person's autonomy. My religion leaves the punishments for crime to the state, as I explained in my post. I fail to see how you deduced that I find any kind of punishment disturbing, or that my religion promotes crime.
Nice try at derailing the issue, but the fact remains that your religion promotes death for people of same sex orientation, and I find that disturbing. You can keep trying to twist that statemtent into my being in support of rapists, but it won't work.
I am glad that there are forums such as this for people to talk about their various religions, because once people in the West listen to actual Muslims talking about their actual beliefs, I think you will find your religion, or at least your particular version of your religion, a much harder sell.

:candle:
Crys

 

[Gharib]

Firstly, I don't quite understand why it's possible to change from homo- to heterosexuality, but not the other way around. I would suggest that it's not something that can be "learnt", and that it is entirely natural for people to be homo-, bi- or heterosexual - there are many cases of homosexual and bisexual activity within the animal kingdom. I myself do not recall ever being strictly heterosexual.

humans have a natural disposition/arrangement and everyone being heterosexual is part of that order. having a homosexual change to heterosexual isn't as easy as it sounds, but still it can be done because of that natural disposition. a heterosexual can change into a homosexual but that happenes at an early age hence a homosexual person. and like i've said many times before a child doesn't choose to become homosexual nor does a grown man, it happens at childhood without a choice.

What I find a little amusing is you claim that "i dare any heterosexual to become homosexual, but no one can do that.". Yet you base your argument on everyone being heterosexual but changing to homosexual at some point during childhood. This would suggest that a heterosexual CAN become homosexual, should they choose to. You can't have it both ways, Eselam, it's one or the other. Either everyone can change, or no-one can!

actually you have missunderstood me, becoming homosexual isn't a choice, you don't get to decide to become homosexual, thats why i dare a heterosexual to become homosexual. it happens by itself depending on the childs environment. so anyone who has not had such a childhood can never become homosexual. but a homosexual can become a heterosexual because of that natural disposition, once that kicks in and starts to take over then a homosexual can change.

and the reason why i dare a heterosexual to become homosexual is because, if you as a heterosexual who doesn't agree that homosexuality is natural (which it isn't) they say they chose to be so, so if some people can choose to be homosexual then everyone can choose to be homosexual.

I cannot choose who I find attractive, I cannot choose those I fall in love with. The only choice I really have is whether or not I act upon it

the first step to changing back is that acting part. a heterosexual man is attracted to all women, but that doesn't mean he can and should love them all and want to have sex with all of them. the same with homosexuality, but in this case, one must refrain from liking men, convince/make the brain to like women. it's all dependent on ones actions.

when it comes to homosexuality and how people say one cannot become heterosexual, i compare that to myself. i am a muslim and i cannot marry a non muslim woman. so i have convinced my brain/myself not to like them as in be attracted to them or fall in love with them i can do that just fine, and when i can do that then a homosexual can also convince his brain that liking men is not natural or good and can shut them out.

 

[methylatedghosts]

humans have a natural disposition/arrangement and everyone being heterosexual is part of that order. having a homosexual change to heterosexual isn't as easy as it sounds, but still it can be done because of that natural disposition. a heterosexual can change into a homosexual but that happenes at an early age hence a homosexual person. and like i've said many times before a child doesn't choose to become homosexual nor does a grown man, it happens at childhood without a choice.

What would you suggest then happens in the case of identical twins where one is gay and the other is straight? They've obviously had the same upbringing, and have been around the same people, have the same number of brothers and sisters - shouldn't both of them be either gay or straight?

actually you have missunderstood me, becoming homosexual isn't a choice, you don't get to decide to become homosexual, thats why i dare a heterosexual to become homosexual. it happens by itself depending on the childs environment. so anyone who has not had such a childhood can never become homosexual. but a homosexual can become a heterosexual because of that natural disposition, once that kicks in and starts to take over then a homosexual can change.

Assuming that this is true, you're still saying it's possible to become homosexual.

and the reason why i dare a heterosexual to become homosexual is because, if you as a heterosexual who doesn't agree that homosexuality is natural (which it isn't) they say they chose to be so, so if some people can choose to be homosexual then everyone can choose to be homosexual.

Why is it NOT natural? If it weren't there wouldn't be natural cases of homosexuality in the rest of the animal kingdom.

when it comes to homosexuality and how people say one cannot become heterosexual, i compare that to myself. i am a muslim and i cannot marry a non muslim woman. so i have convinced my brain/myself not to like them as in be attracted to them or fall in love with them i can do that just fine, and when i can do that then a homosexual can also convince his brain that liking men is not natural or good and can shut them out.

Even assuming that is true, it doesn't automatically mean that a gay man will start to like women instead. Likely he'd just be very very confused about himself indeed.

 

[Gharib]

What would you suggest then happens in the case of identical twins where one is gay and the other is straight? They've obviously had the same upbringing, and have been around the same people, have the same number of brothers and sisters - shouldn't both of them be either gay or straight?

good question i'll give you that.
let me ask you in return 2 questions regarding identical twins.

1 lets assume homosexuality is natural - if homosexuality is natural, then shouldn't both of them twins be homosexual?
they are both in the same womb of the same mother at the same time, so how did one child end up homosexual and the other heterosexual?
what do you suggest happens?

2 lets assume homosexuality is not natural - if homosexuality isn't natural but instead is due to the childs environment, then how is it possible for 2 identical twins to have different sexual orientations?

i will use an example regarding #2.
lets say a mother gives birth to 2 identical boys. now just like how i say that a child may end up homosexual due to the his childhood environment, a child may also end up sick due to his environment. if you leave the child in the cold he will get sick.
having said that, if 2 identical twins are left in the same cold environment one will get sick and the other may not (very highly he wont).

so how do you explain that methylated?

Assuming that this is true, you're still saying it's possible to become homosexual.

in what way am i saying it's possible to become homosexual?

Why is it NOT natural? If it weren't there wouldn't be natural cases of homosexuality in the rest of the animal kingdom.

with regard to animals, i cannot say anything about that. i would have to speak from an islamic perspective and even if i do, that would be my oppinion and may not be the correct islamic view on it, i am not a muslim scholar so i can't comment on something from an islamic view when i do not know the correct islamic teachings or views regarding that matter. i can only speak about homosexuality in men. i understand it better than homosexuality in women and animals.

Even assuming that is true, it doesn't automatically mean that a gay man will start to like women instead. Likely he'd just be very very confused about himself indeed.

no it cannot happen with the snap of the fingers just like that. things don't work like that, nothing does, everything happens gradually. first like you say the person may be very confused, so it goes one step at a time.
the sun doesn't just go from east to west in the blink of an eye, it takes 12 hours.

 

[Kerr]

1 lets assume homosexuality is natural - if homosexuality is natural, then shouldn't both of them twins be homosexual?
they are both in the same womb of the same mother at the same time, so how did one child end up homosexual and the other heterosexual?
what do you suggest happens?

About this, statistics show that if one of a couple of identical twins are homosexual, the chance that the other one is, is radically higher then if they where not identical twins but "ordinary" twins.

 

[methylatedghosts]

good question i'll give you that.
let me ask you in return 2 questions regarding identical twins.

1 lets assume homosexuality is natural - if homosexuality is natural, then shouldn't both of them twins be homosexual?
they are both in the same womb of the same mother at the same time, so how did one child end up homosexual and the other heterosexual?
what do you suggest happens?

I cannot possibly know why one is and one isn't. Statistically, identical twins are more likely to both be gay than non-identical twins.

2 lets assume homosexuality is not natural - if homosexuality isn't natural but instead is due to the childs environment, then how is it possible for 2 identical twins to have different sexual orientations?

i will use an example regarding #2.
lets say a mother gives birth to 2 identical boys. now just like how i say that a child may end up homosexual due to the his childhood environment, a child may also end up sick due to his environment. if you leave the child in the cold he will get sick.
having said that, if 2 identical twins are left in the same cold environment one will get sick and the other may not (very highly he wont).

so how do you explain that methylated?

Random chance - I don't know. I can't know. All I can do is take the things I do know and make conclusions about them in the best way I can.

in what way am i saying it's possible to become homosexual?

Because you say that people start as hetero, then at some point in childhood become gay. Following quotes from you in this thread:

--" they are born heterosexual but their early childhood years may affect the brain and so they end up homosexual after a while"
--"homosexuals can change back to heterosexuals, they didn't start off homosexual to begin with." (i.e. they became gay)
--"everyone is born straight"

with regard to animals, i cannot say anything about that. i would have to speak from an islamic perspective and even if i do, that would be my oppinion and may not be the correct islamic view on it, i am not a muslim scholar so i can't comment on something from an islamic view when i do not know the correct islamic teachings or views regarding that matter. i can only speak about homosexuality in men. i understand it better than homosexuality in women and animals.

Then lay the book aside for a moment and make a guess - it's about the best I can do as well, since I don't know much about animals either, and why some animals display homosexual behaviours.

no it cannot happen with the snap of the fingers just like that. things don't work like that, nothing does, everything happens gradually. first like you say the person may be very confused, so it goes one step at a time.
the sun doesn't just go from east to west in the blink of an eye, it takes 12 hours.

By "automatically" I did not mean "instantly". What I'm suggesting is that conditioning a person to learn that liking a certain thing is bad, does not mean that they will start liking something they previously did not like.

I never have, and highly likely never will like rap music. Even if you conditioned me to believe that liking rap was good and liking rock was bad still wouldn't cause me to like rap music and disliking rock.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

However, to say that it cannot be changed is absolutely ridiculous. The entire profession of psychology/psychiatry circulates around people changing aspects of their psychology that they were born with. A schizophrenic, with appropriate treatment, can be made normal again. Similarly, a homosexual, with appropriate treatment, can be made a heterosexual. The human mind is very moldable.

We had that discussion already and i already told you that there has not been a single study mentioned that shows any treatment to work.
Actually the "entire profession of psychology/psychiatry" had reevaluated homosexuality a few decades ago and took it from the list of mental deseases. It is NO longer considered to be one.

You might think about that before elaborating about schizophrenic people as analogy to homosexuality.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

with regard to animals, i cannot say anything about that. i would have to speak from an islamic perspective and even if i do, that would be my oppinion and may not be the correct islamic view on it, i am not a muslim scholar so i can't comment on something from an islamic view when i do not know the correct islamic teachings or views regarding that matter.

Well perhaps exactly THIS is the problem esalam.
Instead of looking up what the islamic teaching says about this hting you migh consider looking up the facts about homosexuality in animals. then you could verify if these facts correspond to your ideas.
If you always look up things from the islami perspective alone then it is no wonder you cant understand the arguments that are often made.

Homosexuality as being heavily influenced by biology is by now considered sure in biological science. The ones with different viewpoints are religious or conservative people.

Just as evolution is by now considered to be a sure thing in science with again conservative religious people doubting it based on their interpretation of their religion alone.

Someday you might consider listing the facts and evaluating them WITHOUT predetermined results.

 

[TheKnight]

We had that discussion already and i already told you that there has not been a single study mentioned that shows any treatment to work.
Actually the "entire profession of psychology/psychiatry" had reevaluated homosexuality a few decades ago and took it from the list of mental deseases. It is NO longer considered to be one.

You might think about that before elaborating about schizophrenic people as analogy to homosexuality.

I'm not comparing schizophrenia to homosexuality in the sense of it being a disease, but in the sense that man can change his natural mental state.

 

[challupa]

I'm not comparing schizophrenia to homosexuality in the sense of it being a disease, but in the sense that man can change his natural mental state.

Man can likely change his natural mental state. However, what if homosexuality is nothing to do with a mental state, but rather a biological state?

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

I'm not comparing schizophrenia to homosexuality in the sense of it being a disease, but in the sense that man can change his natural mental state.

I can only reply that which i already said above:

Actually the "entire profession of psychology/psychiatry" had reevaluated homosexuality a few decades ago and took it from the list of mental deseases. It is NO longer considered to be one.

 

[linwood]

This really does confirm how wrong Sam Harris is about moderates being no different then there more fundamentalist brothers to the East.

He would be wrong if that has been what he said.

It isn`t however.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

By the way ... what is a "homosexual question"

 

[Draka]

By the way ... what is a "homosexual question"

A question which is attracted to and wants another question. No answers are desired.