Homosexuality and Homosexual Marriages: Why do Christians Care?

[1robin]

This is not true, which @Skwim demonstrated. You can go on with your religious lies as long as you want, but you won't become any more honest than you are right now.
You can go on preaching that abortion is unrelated to heterosex and AIDS is related to homosex, but the information is out there if you ever decide to look at it.
Tom

I see that insults which even if true you could not possibly know it, are pretty much all you have to say. What a surprise. If you continue in this offensive manner I will put you on ignore. If you do not have an actual argument then quit replying and mentioning me.

 

[1robin]

Please back that up.

Certainly, in the US the 4% of us that are homosexual produce 60% of new aids cases. That is data that I have posted many times in these discussions and comes from the CDC (I will provide a link if requested). I also have all kinds of statistics I can provide similar to this one that illustrates my point. However those who defend homosexuality are usually very emotional and evidence has no effect on emotion and preference. So until I see if evidence is accepted by you when provided, I will not bother looking up more than what I have provided here. If evidence is accepted by you then I will try and provide more if requested.

 

[1robin]

Since I am the one who usually blows you out of the water, I am not surprised that you hoped for that.
Tom

Arrogance is the trait hardest to see in our selves but easiest to see in others. Those who are the most arrogant are usually those who have the least cause to be. Another one of these petty and trivial responses from you and on ignore you will be.

 

[Jainarayan]

Certainly, in the US the 4% of us that are homosexual produce 60% of new aids cases. That is data that I have posted many times in these discussions and comes from the CDC (I will provide a link if requested). I also have all kinds of statistics I can provide similar to this one that illustrates my point. However those who defend homosexuality are usually very emotional and evidence has no effect on emotion and preference. So until I see if evidence is accepted by you when provided, I will not bother looking up more than what I have provided here. If evidence is accepted by you then I will try and provide more if requested.

Yes, I want to see the link(s), stats and the source(s). I can tell you right now those percentages are completely skewed. I want to see statistics broken down by sexual orientation, gender, geography, and all the other demographics used for proper statistical reporting.

 

[columbus]

I see that insults which even if true you could not possibly know it, are pretty much all you have to say. What a surprise. If you continue in this offensive manner I will put you on ignore. If you do not have an actual argument then quit replying and mentioning me.

Here's an argument in a nutshell.
Irresponsible heterosex causes about 100X as many deaths by abortion as irresponsible homosex causes death by AIDS, according to your source the CDC.
The vast majority of death from both AIDS and abortion, worldwide, comes from heterosex.
Tom

 

[1robin]

Yes, I want to see the link(s), stats and the source(s). I can tell you right now those percentages are completely skewed. I want to see statistics broken down by sexual orientation, gender, geography, and all the other demographics used for proper statistical reporting.

I cannot demand that the statistics I find include every thing you wish. However I think these make the case pretty clear. I certainly hope I am not wasting what little time I have digging these up. BTW you may can search my past posts about homosexuality where I really plastered all kinds of statistics with their sources. Anyway here you go.

• Gay and bisexual men accounted for 83% (29,418) of the estimated new HIV diagnoses among all males aged 13 and older and 67% of the total estimated new diagnoses in the United States.

• Gay and bisexual men aged 13 to 24 accounted for an estimated 92% of new HIV diagnoses among all men in their age group and 27% of new diagnoses among all gay and bisexual men.

• Gay and bisexual men accounted for an estimated 54% (11,277) of people diagnosed with AIDS. Of those men, 39% were African American, 32% were white, and 24% were Hispanic/Latino.

Gay and Bisexual Men | HIV by Group | HIV/AIDS | CDC

HIV in the United States | Statistics Overview | Statistics Center | HIV/AIDS | CDC

(CNSNews.com) – Although homosexuals, or men who have sex with men (MSM), make up about 2% of the U.S. population, they account for 67% of “all new HIV diagnoses,” according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

In addition, there are about 1.2 million people in the United States with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, and an estimated 647,700 (54%) of those people are homosexuals, or MSM.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/

I can supply sources for this all day long but I have to stop somewhere. However, notice that the actual statistics are even worse than what I posted.

 

[Jainarayan]

Yes, I have seen that link. And as I said earlier, the stats are skewed. I'll leave it to you to figure out why.

 

[1robin]

Here's an argument in a nutshell.
Irresponsible heterosex causes about 100X as many deaths by abortion as irresponsible homosex causes death by AIDS, according to your source the CDC.
The vast majority of death from both AIDS and abortion, worldwide, comes from heterosex.
Tom

I know all about this silly type of argumentation, in all my debates about homosexuality and all the terrible arguments I have encountered the argument your making is pretty much the worst I have had the misfortune to consider. It is the equivalent of claiming that right handed people commit more crime than left handed people so we need to condemn right handed people as less moral than left handed people. When in reality handedness has nothing to do with committing more crime. The reason why right handed men commit more crime than left handed people is because there simply are more of them this is referred to by those who have been educated in the use of statistics as incidental or correlative but not causally related.

Heterosexuality is causally related to pregnancy, not abortion.

If you turned your arguments, attempts at evidence you have provided here, along with your conclusions in to a serious professor of statistics you would be laughed off campus. However do not take my word for it, take your argument to any professor of pure mathematics, statistics, probability, or applied mathematics at a major accredited college, and if they agree with your argument then provide me their phone number and if they say your argument is correct in it's conclusion I will admit publically admit in this forum in as large a font as I can apply that you were right and I was wrong. Good luck.

 

[Prestor John]

I know all about this silly type of argumentation, in all my debates about homosexuality and all the terrible arguments I have encountered the argument your making is pretty much the worst I have had the misfortune to consider. It is the equivalent of claiming that right handed people commit more crime than left handed people so we need to condemn right handed people as less moral than left handed people. When in reality handedness has nothing to do with committing more crime. The reason why right handed men commit more crime than left handed people is because there simply are more of them this is referred to by those who have been educated in the use of statistics as incidental or correlative but not causally related.

Heterosexuality is causally related to pregnancy, not abortion.

If you turned your arguments, attempts at evidence you have provided here, along with your conclusions in to a serious professor of statistics you would be laughed off campus. However do not take my word for it, take your argument to any professor of pure mathematics, statistics, probability, or applied mathematics at a major accredited college, and if they agree with your argument then provide me their phone number and if they say your argument is correct in it's conclusion I will admit publically admit in this forum in as large a font as I can apply that you were right and I was wrong. Good luck.

Hey, I've been following this discussion for a bit and I'm just wondering what are you ultimately trying to prove?

 

[Skwim]

Hey, I've been following this discussion for a bit and I'm just wondering what are you ultimately trying to prove?

From what I can discern it seems to be: "Gays ain't fit to be in my world, and the sooner they're gone the better." But I could be wrong.


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[kaoticprofit]

When I was a kid people who were gay didn't broadcast it, and they were frowned upon by others. They kept it to themselves and people in town knew who the 'gays' were. Since then, the gay community tells people that "it's OK to be gay" and it's just an alternative lifestyle. They have been pushing their agenda like wild fire.

They push their homo crap as much as they can in schools and wherever they can...
More recently, we have the very hateful Dan Savage, who is most famous for berating an auditorium full of high school kids, basically spitting on their Christian beliefs with his hateful bile, seemingly rooted in his own self-hatred.

Ironically, Savage is behind a number of schemes to further brainwash and indoctrinate your sons and daughters into thinking that immoral and grotesque sexual acts are as normal as the sunrise and the sunset.

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/rey-flores/homofascist-agendaAbout

In the Concord Monitor about 20 years ago the lesbian community had an add for a gathering that went something like this...

"Choosing the lesbian lifestyle and receive a free bag lunch."

I don't want their influence on our society. It's nothing but a scourge.
The Traditional Values Coalition states regarding the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network (GLSEN) that co-sponsored a workshop where "instructors encouraged children as young as 14 years of age to engage in life-threatening sex acts.": GLSEN targets children for recruitment into the homosexual lifestyle...through GLSEN chapters that sponsor hundreds of Gay Straight Alliance (GSA) clubs on junior high and high school campuses across the United States.

GLSEN gets into schools by claiming that homosexual and transgender students need to feel safe and encouraged; and that so-called homosexual/transgender teens have high rates of suicide and need a support group. When this tactic fails, GLSEN then threatens legal action against school districts that refuse to allow these recruitment clubs on campus. The American Civil Liberties Union has volunteered to serve as the enforcement arm of GLSEN to impose a homosexual agenda on the nation's public schools.

Homosexuality in Schools - Conservapedia
BAN IT!

 

[columbus]

When I was a kid people who were gay didn't broadcast it, and they were frowned upon by others. They kept it to themselves and people in town knew who the 'gays' were. Since then, the gay community tells people that "it's OK to be gay" and it's just an alternative lifestyle. They have been pushing their agenda like wild fire.

They push their homo crap as much as they can in schools and wherever they can...
More recently, we have the very hateful Dan Savage, who is most famous for berating an auditorium full of high school kids, basically spitting on their Christian beliefs with his hateful bile, seemingly rooted in his own self-hatred.

Ironically, Savage is behind a number of schemes to further brainwash and indoctrinate your sons and daughters into thinking that immoral and grotesque sexual acts are as normal as the sunrise and the sunset.

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/rey-flores/homofascist-agendaAbout

In the Concord Monitor about 20 years ago the lesbian community had an add for a gathering that went something like this...

"Choosing the lesbian lifestyle and receive a free bag lunch."

I don't want their influence on our society. It's nothing but a scourge.
The Traditional Values Coalition states regarding the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network (GLSEN) that co-sponsored a workshop where "instructors encouraged children as young as 14 years of age to engage in life-threatening sex acts.": GLSEN targets children for recruitment into the homosexual lifestyle...through GLSEN chapters that sponsor hundreds of Gay Straight Alliance (GSA) clubs on junior high and high school campuses across the United States.

GLSEN gets into schools by claiming that homosexual and transgender students need to feel safe and encouraged; and that so-called homosexual/transgender teens have high rates of suicide and need a support group. When this tactic fails, GLSEN then threatens legal action against school districts that refuse to allow these recruitment clubs on campus. The American Civil Liberties Union has volunteered to serve as the enforcement arm of GLSEN to impose a homosexual agenda on the nation's public schools.

Homosexuality in Schools - Conservapedia
BAN IT!

Heh...
And @Deidre wonders why Christians are stereotyped as homophobic.
Tom

 

[Skwim]

When I was a kid people who were gay didn't broadcast it, and they were frowned upon by others. They kept it to themselves and people in town knew who the 'gays' were. Since then, the gay community tells people that "it's OK to be gay" and it's just an alternative lifestyle. They have been pushing their agenda like wild fire.

They push their homo crap as much as they can in schools and wherever they can...
More recently, we have the very hateful Dan Savage, who is most famous for berating an auditorium full of high school kids, basically spitting on their Christian beliefs with his hateful bile, seemingly rooted in his own self-hatred.

Ironically, Savage is behind a number of schemes to further brainwash and indoctrinate your sons and daughters into thinking that immoral and grotesque sexual acts are as normal as the sunrise and the sunset.

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/rey-flores/homofascist-agendaAbout

In the Concord Monitor about 20 years ago the lesbian community had an add for a gathering that went something like this...

"Choosing the lesbian lifestyle and receive a free bag lunch."

I don't want their influence on our society. It's nothing but a scourge.
The Traditional Values Coalition states regarding the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network (GLSEN) that co-sponsored a workshop where "instructors encouraged children as young as 14 years of age to engage in life-threatening sex acts.": GLSEN targets children for recruitment into the homosexual lifestyle...through GLSEN chapters that sponsor hundreds of Gay Straight Alliance (GSA) clubs on junior high and high school campuses across the United States.

GLSEN gets into schools by claiming that homosexual and transgender students need to feel safe and encouraged; and that so-called homosexual/transgender teens have high rates of suicide and need a support group. When this tactic fails, GLSEN then threatens legal action against school districts that refuse to allow these recruitment clubs on campus. The American Civil Liberties Union has volunteered to serve as the enforcement arm of GLSEN to impose a homosexual agenda on the nation's public schools.

Homosexuality in Schools - Conservapedia
BAN IT!

HEY! What happened?

. I need to get away from all the idiots and ******** on this forum so please ban me NOW.
Homo's are the scum of the earth. See Ya!

Decide that you really "love" all us idiots after all, male and female alike?. . . . . . . . . If a female answers hang up.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Please back that up.

He can't because the simple truth is that the majority of people with HIV/AIDS are heterosexual. What increases the risk isn't gay sex in of itself. It's injection drug use, promiscuity and not using condoms. There's nothing inherent to male homosexuality that puts you at greater risk of HIV/AIDS or causes it. There's probably more straight women with HIV/AIDS than men as a group, too, because the person being penetrated is at greater risk than the person doing the penetrating.

I'm not sure why these arguments are so obsessed with male homosexuality, anyway. There's lesbians, you know. I mean, I can guess but...

 

[1robin]

Hey, I've been following this discussion for a bit and I'm just wondering what are you ultimately trying to prove?

Hello Preston, I am trying to show that homosexual acts are not logically or morally justifiable in even a secular context.. I do not go around telling homosexuals what to do (even though they tell me what I am supposed to do, and they demand that I pay for the medical bills they incur as the result of behavior which I consider immoral and that I do not engage in) but I do engage in argumentation. Homosexuality in a Christian context is simply another sin, and we all commit sins of different kinds. The difference in my case is that I will not defend my own sinful actions and I expect others who act immorally to at least admit that what they do is immoral, and that they do not demand that I must agree with what they do if it is not justifiable. I do not really find homosexuality demands challenging because I seldom get even a rational argument in defense of the practice. The only reason I comment in this type of debate is I personally set out to see if God's commands against homosexual behavior could actually be shown to be immoral. To my surprise I found it easy to show that even on a secular level the behavior was unjustifiable.

Also to my surprise again I can show that abortion is also morally unjustifiable in even a secular context. Every once in a while I put the arguments I discovered to the test in a debate just to see if they can stand the test of fire. So far they have withstood everything thrown at them. I did have a person effectively counter one of the dozens of premise' I use for my homosexuality and abortion conclusions but that still leaves me with a dozen or so sets of data that have never been shown to be incorrect so far.

 

[JustWondering]

Inherently, Atheists should have no interest in same-sex marriage. Atheists tend to be practical and non-religious. The practical value of marriage comes mainly from reproduction, which doesn't apply to same-sex marriage. Marriage is also a religious institution. So, why are generally Atheists treating same sex-marriage as some sort of holy and practical thing that our culture must bow to? Because Atheists define themselves as anti-God.... Opposing Christian values is a way to express their Atheism.

First, Atheists can be anti-god but Atheism itself simply refers to not believing in a god. I think you are projecting here.

Secondly, it's not just atheists that support same sex marriage, it's any decent person who doesn't like seeing a portion of our population being harassed and discriminated against by religious folk in a secular country.

 

[JustWondering]

Hello Preston, I am trying to show that homosexual acts are not logically or morally justifiable in even a secular context.. I do not go around telling homosexuals what to do (even though they tell me what I am supposed to do, and they demand that I pay for the medical bills they incur as the result of behavior which I consider immoral and that I do not engage in) but I do engage in argumentation. Homosexuality in a Christian context is simply another sin, and we all commit sins of different kinds. The difference in my case is that I will not defend my own sinful actions and I expect others who act immorally to at least admit that what they do is immoral, and that they do not demand that I must agree with what they do if it is not justifiable. I do not really find homosexuality demands challenging because I seldom get even a rational argument in defense of the practice. The only reason I comment in this type of debate is I personally set out to see if God's commands against homosexual behavior could actually be shown to be immoral. To my surprise I found it easy to show that even on a secular level the behavior was unjustifiable.

Also to my surprise again I can show that abortion is also morally unjustifiable in even a secular context. Every once in a while I put the arguments I discovered to the test in a debate just to see if they can stand the test of fire. So far they have withstood everything thrown at them. I did have a person effectively counter one of the dozens of premise' I use for my homosexuality and abortion conclusions but that still leaves me with a dozen or so sets of data that have never been shown to be incorrect so far.

How the hell are homosexual acts immoral in a secular context, please enlighten me on this one.

 

[JustWondering]

Yes, a marriage can be religion-free, but I'm sure you're still a fan of closing down Christian businesses that don't want to produce same-sex photos and cakes for religious same-sex marriage ceremonies.

I would also be in favor of fining businesses that DISCRIMINATE against other groups as well, including Christians.

We get that you hate homosexuals, that doesn't mean that everyone else is motivated by hate.

 

[1robin]

How the hell are homosexual acts immoral in a secular context, please enlighten me on this one.

Please, go back and do a little homework into my recent posts. Oh the heck with it, I don't want you to half heartedly make the attempt and cause me to do even more work because you spent too little time investigating. I went back and copied my arguments below.

Well to start with I can give an answer that is perfectly justified. God created the institution of marriage as a type of analogy which exhibits the arrangement between the Church (the bride), and Jesus (the bride groom). His revelations also condemn homosexual acts as an abomination. That justification is perfectly valid but it isn't much fun so lets go a little deeper.

I will make a secular argument against homosexuality but before I do, if anyone has logical reasons to think I am wrong then bring them on, but if as in most cases your objection is simply your emotional preference dressed up in a mere veneer of logic then please do not respond to me.

1. Homosexual acts produce far more damage than any potential gains can justify. For example 4% of the US population are homosexual yet they create 60% of new aids cases, and homosexual life spans are drastically shorter than heterosexual life spans. That is just the tip of the ice burg.

2. Heterosexual acts do cause some damage but far less than homosexual acts do and unlike homosexual sex heterosexual acts are necessary to perpetuate the human race.

That is my preliminary argument. Again don't bring emotion to a logical debate, these discussions are always disappointing and at this point I will no longer waste evidence on an emotional position.

I was also asked to post some evidence and I gave a few examples in post# 268 I believe. I will not spend time going through past posts after this point.

 

[omega2xx]

That is, care if others engage in them?


I know homosexuality has pretty much run its course here on RF, but I can't remember this specific point having been addressed, and just to be clear I'll restate the question.

Why do Christians care that people of the same gender engage in sex, and why do they care that they marry each other? Even caring to the point of voicing their objections and protesting?

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Why do you care if we care?