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Homosexuality and Homosexual Marriages: Why do Christians Care?

G

Gmcbroom

Member
Actually in 53 countries Christians are persecuted. The persecution here hasn't reached the martyrdom stage yet. But it's coming. Doubt me look at Saudi Arabia.
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
Rise said:
You ignored point #1.
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Yes I did. I failed to see it's relevance to the questions I asked.

It's not kept in their home. It's not even merely flaunted in public. It's been taken to a new level where there is an agenda to forcibly resocialize the country through the media and public education to have us all view this lifestyle as normal, even admirable, and to stigmatize anyone who disagrees with that lifestyle on religious grounds as someone who is on par with a racist. If they had their way, they'd start jailing Christians just for speaking their opinion publically too.
That's where Christians have an obligation to legally and politically push back for the sake of their own freedoms, and to guard the moral integrity of their families and communities against a powerful minority in media and politics that want to force them to change their values.
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Homophobic to the extreme, but okay.

The real question that first has to be asked is: Did God design us, and design us to live in a certain way, where there are consequences for rebelling against God's design?
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Then I suggest you create your own thread and ask away.

If you say yes to that question, then we can start to talk about what the difference is between violating God's law and violating man's law. The later doesn't have a negative impact on society unless you are violating God's law as well.
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Irrelevant to the questions I asked.

.
 
R

Rise

Well-Known Member
Mestemia said:
Oh the poor poor Christians.
Sad they dislike the taste of their own medicine.
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Do you support Canada jailing a man because all he did was publicly say the Bible says homosexuality is a sin?

We're not talking about a few fringe kooks, this is actual law, supporting by the people and enforced by presumably a majority of the people in that country.
That's the direction some people in the USA want to take our country.

I've never heard of any Christian today who supports jailing someone because they publicly state that homosexuality is ok. Of course if you look hard enough you can find anyone who supports anything, but get back to me when there's an actual law which reflects that this is a common and acceptable position for Christians in that society to take.
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
Rise said:
Do you support Canada jailing a man because all he did was publicly say the Bible says homosexuality is a sin?
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I cannot answer that question because I am not privy to the story outside your mentioning it here.

My point, the one you seem to not understand, is that Christians set the bar on how to treat those whey disagree with.
They set the nasty of it pretty high.
So it is rather hypocritical of Christains to whine that the same bar setting is now being turned on them.

Rise said:
We're not talking about a few fringe kooks, this is actual law, supporting by the people and enforced by presumably a majority of the people in that country.
That's the direction some people in the USA want to take our country.
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I wonder if you are familiar with "you reap what you sow"?

Rise said:
I've never heard of any Christian today who supports jailing someone because they publicly state that homosexuality is ok. Of course if you look hard enough you can find anyone who supports anything, but get back to me when there's an actual law which reflects that this is a common and acceptable position for Christians in that society to take.
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Prop 8 comes to mind.
Same sex marriage bans come to mind.
Sodomy laws come to mind.

Face it, Christians set the bar on how to treat others.
You are only whining because now the same bar has been turned on Christians.
 
R

Rise

Well-Known Member
Skwim said:
Yes I did. I failed to see it's relevance to the questions I asked.
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And I just tried to help you by further explaining relevance.
The premise of your question wasn't true to begin with.

If it was only staying in their home, then your question might be valid. But it isn't. Christians are having their businesses shut down because they can't morally participate a homosexual wedding. Pastors in Canada are being jailed for saying homosexuality is a sin.

Homophobic to the extreme, but okay.
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This is a perfect example of what I was just telling you about.
I point out the danger of a country that would jail a pastor for doing nothing other than reading from the Bible publically, and not only is my concern ignored but you call me homophobic for even having a concern in the first place.

That is a tactic used only to shut down debate about the consequences of certain policies. It's not a true statement, and it doesn't even make linguistic sense (Homophobic implies an irrational fear. There's nothing irrational about this concern because it's already happening. It's not even hypothetical).

It's like calling people racist just because they want secure borders where we control who comes into our country for security's sake. It's not addressing people's legitimate concerns, it's only meant to shut down real debate. Political and media elites are committed to a long term policy of completely open borders for ideological reasons. They would much rather avoid that debate by calling you a xenophobic racist because if they allow a debate to take place over pragmatic common sense security concerns they will lose. Their only real defense is to try to shame people into being allowed to have that debate to begin with.
Irrelevant to the questions I asked.
.
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I was trying to help you understand why your question cannot be answered without first understanding where our morality is derived from.

If the law of a particular religion was trying to force on society to do something which is a reflection of God's law (such as administrating justice fairly, not murdering, not stealing, etc), then I would be all for it.
But if a law is against God's law, then it will be harmful for society and should be opposed.

You can't begin to have a discussion with me about whether or not forcing women to wear the muslim hijab is a good or bad thing for society unless you first recognize that God's true laws are a universal moral standard, because without that there is no objective standard to measure laws against.
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Rise said:
Do you support Canada jailing a man because all he did was publicly say the Bible says homosexuality is a sin?
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No.
But if this is about the story I remember, he said a lot more than that.
We're not talking about a few fringe kooks, this is actual law, supporting by the people and enforced by presumably a majority of the people in that country.
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I don't approve of laws constricting freedom of speech much. But I don't pay much attention to foreign places like Canada. Those people are terminally nice. Disgusting, really.
That's the direction some people in the USA want to take our country.
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If you look hard enough you can find someone supporting anything. It's the magic of the internet.
I've never heard of any Christian today who supports jailing someone because they publicly state that homosexuality is ok. Of course if you look hard enough you can find anyone who supports anything, but get back to me when there's an actual law which reflects that this is a common and acceptable position for Christians in that society to take.
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I live in the state that Vice President elect Mike Pence is currently governor. He ran for governor on a platform promising to restrict marriage to straight people with an amendment to the state constitution. He got legislation through legalizing religious bigotry when due to "sincerely held beliefs". And requirements for parents to bury or cremate fetal remains.
Oh yeah, Christians are very willing to impose their beliefs on the rest of us by force of law when they can. I've watched it happen. And now they're in the White House.
Tom
 
R

Rise

Well-Known Member
Mestemia said:
According to Christians.
Personally, I don't see it.
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http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/17/world/christian-persecution-2015/
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/

"Last year was the most violent for Christians in modern history, rising to "a level akin to ethnic cleansing," according to a new report by Open Doors USA, a watchdog group that advocates for Christians. In total, the survey found that more than 7,100 Christians were killed in 2015 for "faith-related reasons," up 3,000 from the previous year, according to the group's analysis of media reports and other public information as well as external experts."


You live in a country where Christians are a majority and their rights are protected. Historically this has not been the case in most of the world. And if certain elements in the USA and Europe had their way, they would start to be persecuted in western society as well.

I cannot answer that question because I am not privy to the story outside your mentioning it here.
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http://culturecampaign.blogspot.com/2007/12/pastor-found-guilty-of-hate-crime.html

http://chalcedon.edu/Research/Artic...ces-Jail-For-Preaching-Against-Homosexuality/

http://shoebat.com/2015/03/28/chris...hreatens-to-imprison-him-for-forty-five-days/

http://christiantimes.com/article/a...da-punishable-by-two-year-jail-time/55959.htm

http://culturecampaign.blogspot.com/2014/10/pastors-face-fines-jail-for-refusing.html

There's a very clear case of a Swedish pastor being jailed for preaching that homosexuality is a sin. He does nothing that could be construed as advocating violence or hate towards people.

So let's deal with the reality here. This is actually already happening in western society, and it's starting to come to the USA after already taking root in Europe and Canada. Do you support jailing people who say homosexuality is a sin?
A lot of people do. Enough to make laws against it and support the government when they persecute those individuals.

If Christians had proposed jailing people for saying homosexuality is not a sin I would be one of the first ones saying that is unconstitutional and wrong. But Christians aren't doing that, even though they have the numbers to do it if they wanted to.
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
Rise said:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/17/world/christian-persecution-2015/
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/

"Last year was the most violent for Christians in modern history, rising to "a level akin to ethnic cleansing," according to a new report by Open Doors USA, a watchdog group that advocates for Christians. In total, the survey found that more than 7,100 Christians were killed in 2015 for "faith-related reasons," up 3,000 from the previous year, according to the group's analysis of media reports and other public information as well as external experts."


You live in a country where Christians are a majority and their rights are protected. Historically this has not been the case in most of the world. And if certain elements in the USA and Europe had their way, they would start to be persecuted in western society as well.


http://culturecampaign.blogspot.com/2007/12/pastor-found-guilty-of-hate-crime.html

http://chalcedon.edu/Research/Artic...ces-Jail-For-Preaching-Against-Homosexuality/

http://shoebat.com/2015/03/28/chris...hreatens-to-imprison-him-for-forty-five-days/

http://christiantimes.com/article/a...da-punishable-by-two-year-jail-time/55959.htm

http://culturecampaign.blogspot.com/2014/10/pastors-face-fines-jail-for-refusing.html

There's a very clear case of a Swedish pastor being jailed for preaching that homosexuality is a sin. He does nothing that could be construed as advocating violence or hate towards people.

So let's deal with the reality here. This is actually already happening in western society, and it's starting to come to the USA after already taking root in Europe and Canada. Do you support jailing people who say homosexuality is a sin?
A lot of people do. Enough to make laws against it and support the government when they persecute those individuals.

If Christians had proposed jailing people for saying homosexuality is not a sin I would be one of the first ones saying that is unconstitutional and wrong. But Christians aren't doing that, even though they have the numbers to do it if they wanted to.
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STILL ignoring the point.

I am not interested in your martyrdom.
Christians set the bar.
Now they have to deal with it.
Simple as that.
 
R

Rise

Well-Known Member
columbus said:
I am not interested in your martyrdom.
Christians set the bar.
Now they have to deal with it.
Simple as that.
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So you support jailing Christians for preaching what the Bible says because you think they deserve it?
I'm just trying to be clear here where you're coming from.
 
Prestor John

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
columbus said:
They are practicing the Catholicism of the future.
Tom
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No, that would not be Catholicism.

That's just like saying that the whining Millennial snowflake's version of a democratic republic is the "Democratic republic of the future."

No, that would not be a democratic republic. That would be something else entirely.
 
Prestor John

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Mestemia said:
However, there are ways one can present their opinions that are illegal.
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Explain this one to me. I'm thinking that you are alluding to more than someone simply "presenting their opinion."

Thank you for the link.

Back in the day, being a Mormon in the state of Missouri was an offense punishable by death.
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Rise said:
So you support jailing Christians for preaching what the Bible says because you think they deserve it?
I'm just trying to be clear here where you're coming from.
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You need to be careful quoting. Mestemia posted that.
I am fine with people believing almost anything. I am fine with people saying almost anything. I am not big on jailing anyone unless they are physically dangerous.

But I do see Christians trying to use the power of the state to persecute others. And I see people on this forum defending that.
Tom
 
R

Rise

Well-Known Member
Mestemia said:
No, I do not think people should be jailed for their opinions.
However, there are ways one can present their opinions that are illegal.
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Then I'm glad we can all agree that this persecution of Christians in western society for simply preaching what the Bible says is wrong.

But it's already happening. In many western countries people must not think it's wrong, because they have laws that they enforce to this effect.

This is where we risk heading as a country when we persecute Christian businesses with fines and closure, even threatening pastors with jail for refusing to conduct a ceremony, because they cannot in good religious conscious participate in a homosexual wedding.
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/gay-persecution-of-christians-the-latest-evidence

And those are the facts that anyone needs to be aware of if they mistakenly think this issue is only about what people do in the privacy of their bedroom. There is a larger movement that seeks to transform society and force Christians to change their views on homosexuality.
 
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