Homosexuality and Homosexual Marriages: Why do Christians Care?

[columbus]

Explain how you see "Christians trying to use the power of the state to persecute others." Please.

I keep having to repeat this.
Mike Pence, VP elect, ran for governor of my state promising to get a State Constitution amendment preventing me from marrying my partner Doug.
I am one of the people that Christians like him persecute whenever possible.
Tom

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The silent majority spoke and voted for trump.

Uh, Trump lost the popular vote by over two million people. The majority didn't vote for him. We have only twice in my lifetime had a president which won but lost the popular vote, and both times were unpopular Republican idiots. I mean...nominees.

 

[McBell]

Then I'm glad we can all agree that this persecution of Christians in western society for simply preaching what the Bible says is wrong.

Except that is not what I said.
Do you twist the Bible around in the manner?

But it's already happening. In many western countries people must not think it's wrong, because they have laws that they enforce to this effect.

Boo hoo.
Ignorance of the law is no exception to the law.
Neither is your religion.

This is where we risk heading as a country when we persecute Christian businesses with fines and closure, even threatening pastors with jail for refusing to conduct a ceremony, because they cannot in good religious conscious participate in a homosexual wedding.
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/gay-persecution-of-christians-the-latest-evidence

And those are the facts that anyone needs to be aware of if they mistakenly think this issue is only about what people do in the privacy of their bedroom. There is a larger movement that seeks to transform society and force Christians to change their views on homosexuality.

To bad Christians couldn't keep to the privacy of their churches, right?
Now they have to deal with the real consequences of their real world participation and dislike getting the medicine they have dished out for centuries.

 

[McBell]

How is it "baseless" when the prediction came true?

Please list the religions and morals that crumbled because of inter-racial marriage.

 

[Skwim]

And I just tried to help you by further explaining relevance.
The premise of your question wasn't true to begin with.

If it isn't true that Christians care that people of the same gender engage in sex, and that they marry each other, even caring to the point of voicing their objections and protesting, then why have you gone on at length trying to explain why?

If it was only staying in their home, then your question might be valid. But it isn't. Christians are having their businesses shut down because they can't morally participate a homosexual wedding. Pastors in Canada are being jailed for saying homosexuality is a sin.

Your insistence to take the topic of track is noted. And if you can't get back I don't see any reason to continue our discussion.

This is a perfect example of what I was just telling you about.
I point out the danger of a country that would jail a pastor for doing nothing other than reading from the Bible publically, and not only is my concern ignored but you call me homophobic for even having a concern in the first place.

Your homophobia figuratively rings from your rhetoric. Obviously you can't reasonably connect the concern some Christians have for what homosexuals do in their privacy to any kind of perceived social injustice. But to give you another chance to explain, just tell us in simple words:

1) Why two homosexuals who engage in sex in the privacy of their own home create a social injustice​

AND

2) Why two homosexuals who abstain from sex in the privacy of their own home do not create a social injustice


3) Why two homosexuals create a social injustice by being married​

AND

4) Why two homosexuals don't create a social injustice by not being married
​

That you may not like the fact that the law of the land supports their civil rights is unfortunate I guess. But unless you can show some overriding harm from engaging in sex as opposed to not engaging in it, OR being married as opposed to not being married, there is little else to discuss. After all, it's because of such "harm" that you say it's necessary people should care what homosexuals do in their private lives.


.

 

[McBell]

Explain this one to me. I'm thinking that you are alluding to more than someone simply "presenting their opinion."

Define "simply"

I ask because I did not use that word in the post you quoted.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Actually in 53 countries Christians are persecuted. The persecution here hasn't reached the martyrdom stage yet. But it's coming. Doubt me look at Saudi Arabia.

You don't trust polls but you trust this Facebook meme?
Not only is that number really exaggerated (some people consider illegalization of state sponsored Christianity to be persecution) but the countries with the worst persecution are certainly not Christian exclusive but include atheism, Pagans and Jews as well.

 

[Rise]

Except that is not what I said.
Do you twist the Bible around in the manner?

So let's be clear here:
Are you saying you don't want to jail Christians for believing the BIble, just for telling people they do publicly?

To be more direct and specific, because you seem to be trying to weasel away from having to answer this question: do you agree with jailing someone who publicly says they agree with the Bible that homosexuality is a sin? Because that's exactly what has already happened in western countries.

 

[Rise]

Your homophobia figuratively rings from your rhetoric. Obviously you can't reasonably connect the concern some Christians have for what homosexuals do in their privacy to any kind of perceived social injustice.
.

Let's back up a second, because I think I see where the problem is: You don't seem to think it's an injustice to jail a Christian for saying what they believe.

Do you think it is a just thing for a Christian to be put in jail because they publicly state they believe, according to the Bible, that homosexuality is a sin?

Because you not only seem to think that is nothing to be concerned about, but you are even trying to call someone homophobic for being concerned about such a thing happening.

Is that how you define homophobia: Someone who values their constitutional rights to freedom of speech and religion?

 

[SomeRandom]

Then I'm glad we can all agree that this persecution of Christians in western society for simply preaching what the Bible says is wrong.

But it's already happening. In many western countries people must not think it's wrong, because they have laws that they enforce to this effect.

This is where we risk heading as a country when we persecute Christian businesses with fines and closure, even threatening pastors with jail for refusing to conduct a ceremony, because they cannot in good religious conscious participate in a homosexual wedding.
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/gay-persecution-of-christians-the-latest-evidence

And those are the facts that anyone needs to be aware of if they mistakenly think this issue is only about what people do in the privacy of their bedroom. There is a larger movement that seeks to transform society and force Christians to change their views on homosexuality.

Wait, wait wait. Do you guys in America not have the idea of professionalism? You can argue that people providing a public service to the general public should be able to hide behind their religious beliefs (which are a private matter only) to discriminate against gay people?

As one retail worker I can say, I have no sympathy for such unprofessional crybabies who throw tantrums because they have to now share their toys. Do they also refuse all customers who are remarrying? All customers who are overweight? All customers who have committed adultery?
I mean if you're going to be selective of your customers (which is the very first thing retail businesses tend to avoid because it's unprofessional and idiotic) then at least be consistent.

 

[Prestor John]

I keep having to repeat this.
Mike Pence, VP elect, ran for governor of my state promising to get a State Constitution amendment preventing me from marrying my partner Doug.
I am one of the people that Christians like him persecute whenever possible.
Tom

Would you mind providing a source for this claim?

Also, would you mind explaining how you consider this to be persecution?

 

[Prestor John]

You don't trust polls but you trust this Facebook meme?
Not only is that number really exaggerated (some people consider illegalization of state sponsored Christianity to be persecution) but the countries with the worst persecution are certainly not Christian exclusive but include atheism, Pagans and Jews as well.

Of course no one trusts polls. Polls said Hilary was going to win.

Would you mind providing a source for your claim that some people consider the illegalization of State sponsored Christianity to be persecution?

No one claimed that Christians were the only people being persecuted.

 

[Prestor John]

Define "simply"

I ask because I did not use that word in the post you quoted.

I placed in quotes the portion of your post that I quoted.

I never claimed that you used the word "simply" so don't worry about.

Are you ready to clarify what you said?

 

[Prestor John]

Please list the religions and morals that crumbled because of inter-racial marriage.

Do you believe that the current moral standards of the world in general are higher or lower than they were fifty years ago?

A perfect example has already been brought up in this thread about the latest generation of Catholics.

 

[Prestor John]

Uh, Trump lost the popular vote by over two million people. The majority didn't vote for him. We have only twice in my lifetime had a president which won but lost the popular vote, and both times were unpopular Republican idiots. I mean...nominees.

Two million people is NOTHING! About what .66% of the population?

How many of those people were voting illegally?

The losing side always complains when the system, which allows the intellectually diverse populace have a voice, ends up working against them.

You're trying to change the rules of the game after you lost. Sore losers much?

We are going to make America great again.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I'm always in awe at how hard Liberals try to play dumb. Christian business are being forced out if the owners refuse to engage in homosexual speech.

I'm always in awe how Jesus never told Christians to be jerks toward gay people, but they find it to be an obsession.

How do you get, out of something like Matt 19:12, your attitude towards homosexual consenting adult relationships?

Religiously, marriage is a holy thing. To say that it can be participated in by any two people other than a male and a female is sacrilege.

Which religion, because biblical marriages are almost NEVER one male and one female.

The issue of homosexuality and homosexual "marriage" is my business because it affects the world in which I live, and the society which I (we) have received from our forefathers, along with the responsibility to preserve and cultivate it.

Your forefathers also liked to kill independent women, calling them witches, and enslaving blacks and killing Natives. There is no Golden Age of the US to look back to.

Or are you under the impression that the laws of the Roman Catholic Church rule the country?

And why does the Catholic Church also forget it, too, once held same-sex marriages?

The practical value of marriage comes mainly from reproduction

I wasn't aware we rescinded the marriage licenses of those without children.

Government: Oh, I'm sorry your only child just died in a car crash. While they're cleaning up, we'd like to inform you you are now divorced. Congrats!

It's simply a matter of upholding the moral standard.

Whose? It's not from Jesus ...

Saint Paul informs us

There we go. I know the name of your messiah now. Thanks.

symptoms of spiritual trouble brought about by grave sin

So God wants people who love each other but are the same sex to go to hell, but people who develop a religion after first trying to murder the people of the initial wave of the coming religion are "saints". Got it.

There is no authority higher than God

You put Paul over God and Jesus both.

We know homosexuality to be a depraved and destructive thing

These people also wrote that tattoos, certain seafood, and certain fabrics are going to send you to hell. I think given the presence of rape, genocide, murder, kidnapping, etc, that they had really awful priorities.

but I'm sure you're still a fan of closing down Christian businesses that don't want to produce same-sex photos and cakes for religious same-sex marriage ceremonies.

I'm a Christian and I think they should get consequences, from the public if not the government, because JESUS WOULD NEVER HAVE TOLD A GAY PERSON THEY COULDN'T HAVE A CAKE. He would have made a FABULOUS one, better than anyone else could ever bake.

Maybe you should talk to someone about the birds and the bees.

Actually, that would be a blasphemy against God, would it not? Surely God would prefer bird-bird or bee-bee relationships....

Christians really don't give a rip about what consenting adults do in private, contrary to the paranoia and deceit of leftwing activists.

But you don't think they should have a cake. It's not that big a jump to think they shouldn't get housing or other "perks" of necessity, like food or water or freedom or life. You think THE GAYS ARE OUT TO GET YOU. We "liberals" aren't the paranoid ones.

"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."

"They wanted to rape the non-gendered angels instead of baking them a cake. For this, God nuked them."

By the way in Hebrew woman is pierced and man is piercer.

Well, that's before we invented plastic and batteries.

Some issues of concern of Christians would be that Jesus is the bridegroom and the bride is the church

The church is made up of men and women and kids, though ...

Sometimes they start with that, and simply eliminate bakers and photographers who don't overtly work with gay couples. More often they respond to other people saying things like "Ew, Joe's Bakery turned down my cousin because they're gay", and then cross Joe off the list.
It happens a lot.

Yes. Smart businesspeople should realize that it comes down to safety and money. I should be able to ban someone who is vandalizing my business, harassing my staff and/or customers, showing off weaponry like they just got a new penis with extra options, etc. I should NOT ban people who are black, gay, Muslim or Muslim-ish, trans, etc. It's just common sense.

I believe he puts it best when he says that at first they said all they wanted was tolerance, but after they got tolerance that wasn't enough, now they demand that we openly celebrate their lifestyle choice with them and teach our kids that it's ok for them to do the same.

They are not telling your kids to be gay. Grow up.

If you love an individual, then speaking to them as an individual you will tell them they are doing something that is against God's design for them; because anything that goes against God's design for us is always harmful to ourselves and others.

And yet you don't really CARE about God's design for them, because you ask Moses and Paul instead of God, who's sitting right there ...

New Christian goal for 2017: Let God do God.

The silent majority spoke and voted for trump.

Including quite a few imaginary people too, given what's coming out of the recount stories....

This just proves that the younger generations are not practicing Catholics.

Or they are practicing Catholics who find it immoral to sin against innocent people.

It's not kept in their home. It's not even merely flaunted in public. It's been taken to a new level where there is an agenda to forcibly resocialize the country through the media and public education to have us all view this lifestyle as normal, even admirable, and to stigmatize anyone who disagrees with that lifestyle on religious grounds as someone who is on par with a racist.

So all the mildly pornographic commercials and stuff that tickle hetero people's fancies should be banned too, right?

Goodbye, Victoria Secret. Hello, Vicki's Burqa.

Did God design us, and design us to live in a certain way, where there are consequences for rebelling against God's design?

Illnesses and death occur to heteros as well. So I guess everyone should just give up all sex, since that must be God's design.

I would say a lot of muslim law reflects man-made legalism

LOL. Just the Muslims?

So let's be clear here:
Are you saying you don't want to jail Christians for believing the BIble, just for telling people they do publicly?

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."
If we need to base our laws on what Jesus actually says, then ...

lso, would you mind explaining how you consider this to be persecution?

So asking you to bake a cake for a gay wedding is persecution but denying those gays the ability to even MARRY is not?

Do you believe that the current moral standards of the world in general are higher or lower than they were fifty years ago?

50 years ago, cops and such were shooting minorities and hitting them with water hoses, all Christians, mind you, who also had these nice white hoodies to wear for special occasions. Nowadays, my soul screams in anguish that apparently some people STILL are doing this crap.

But no, no ... it's all the GAYS' fault the world is going to hell.

 

[columbus]

Would you mind providing a source for this claim?

Feel free to google "Indiana state constitution amendment marriage Mike Pence " and choose any of the hundreds of hits you get.
It was hardly a secret. Altering the Constitution is a long process taking years and was very controversial.

Also, would you mind explaining how you consider this to be persecution?

When the government passes legislation specifically against one group of citizens based on their religion I am calling it persecution.
Tom

 

[Prestor John]

Wait, wait wait. Do you guys in America not have the idea of professionalism? You can argue that people providing a public service to the general public should be able to hide behind their religious beliefs (which are a private matter only) to discriminate against gay people?.

I believe that any private business owner should be able to deny services to their customers if they believe that providing that service will violate their religious views.

I also believe that any consumer has the right to boycott any business.

I don't believe that the government should get involved. The government should not be able to force/coerce any private business holder to provide a service they believe will violate their religious views.

On that same token, I don't believe that the government should be able to force any consumer to purchase any goods or services from any business that they wish to boycott.

As one retail worker I can say, I have no sympathy for such unprofessional crybabies who throw tantrums because they have to now share their toys.

I believe that is oversimplifying things.

Do they also refuse all customers who are remarrying? All customers who are overweight? All customers who have committed adultery?.

What kind of service?

I mean if you're going to be selective of your customers (which is the very first thing retail businesses tend to avoid because it's unprofessional and idiotic) then at least be consistent.

I can agree with you here.

 

[Prestor John]

Feel free to google "Indiana state constitution amendment marriage Mike Pence " and choose any of the hundreds of hits you get.
It was hardly a secret. Altering the Constitution is a long process taking years and was very controversial.

Why are people so unwilling to provide their sources?

I don't know if what you are talking about is the same thing I am talking about.

If you are referencing the Religious Freedom Restoration Act then I don't see any grounds for persecution.

When the government passes legislation specifically against one group of citizens based on their religion I am calling it persecution.
Tom

Then it is my opinion that you would be wrong.

Your State passed legislation for one group, not against any group.

 

[Prestor John]

Or they are practicing Catholics who find it immoral to sin against innocent people.

I don't understand.

It is not sinful to recognize or support the sins of others.

So asking you to bake a cake for a gay wedding is persecution but denying those gays the ability to even MARRY is not?.

No, asking to bake a cake is not persecution. Suing someone because they do not want to violate their religious beliefs is.

The guy who bakes the cake is not denying anyone the ability to marry by refusing to bake a cake for them.

50 years ago, cops and such were shooting minorities and hitting them with water hoses, all Christians, mind you, who also had these nice white hoodies to wear for special occasions. Nowadays, my soul screams in anguish that apparently some people STILL are doing this crap.

Are you only willing to see the immorality of the people you disagree with?

What about the immorality of minorities? Are you willing to see that?

But no, no ... it's all the GAYS' fault the world is going to hell.

I never made that claim.