Speaking for myself, I don't see it that way, really. I can be lazy with language sometimes, I will admit. But remove Christianity from the US as a whole...would marriage equality have occurred sooner than it did?
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Homosexuality and Homosexual Marriages: Why do Christians Care?
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Speaking for myself, I don't see it that way, really. I can be lazy with language sometimes, I will admit. But remove Christianity from the US as a whole...would marriage equality have occurred sooner than it did?
I asked you a moral question, not a legal question.
I gave you a specific case example:
http://chalcedon.edu/Research/Artic...ces-Jail-For-Preaching-Against-Homosexuality/
Is it morally right or wrong that they are trying to jail this Swedish pastor for publicly expressing his view in a peaceful way?
Are you saying you don't want to render a moral judgement, but are content to say that whatever is legal is right just because it's legal?
Where do you draw the line and start making moral judgments independent of whether or not it's legal? Are you saying you'd have no problem with the government rounding up Christians to throw into gas chambers so long as the government had passed a law saying that was now legal?
He was aquitted on appeal.
Jackrabbti
Member
So, you want to play the Nazi? In essence, you say a solider who refuses to throw a Jew into an oven isn't being professional! Do what you're told regardless of your own personal beliefs! The nazis are properly hated for that.
Why is religion private matter? Why aren't your bedroom proclivities a private matter? Isn't a man's private business his private business? There's so much bullsh*t in your pro-nazi argument.
I pity the liberal who must squirm in sh*t and disingenuity to defend his/her/its beliefs. Now, don't go crying.
Thorwald Johansen
Member
When we consider homosexuality [being right or wrong], we should consider the outcome that would result, if EVERYONE became gay or lesbian, with all children becoming test tube babies.
Shad
Veteran Member
Fake news, check your sources.
We might not have even had it described as ''one man, one woman'' at all...Christianity brought that aspect of things to the marriage law. US was ''founded'' on Christian principles and all that...
Truth be told, atheists have the longest lasting marriages, and least divorces. I mean, they make up much less of the population than Christians, but not that much less. I think that's a significant thing, because many Christians assume that Christians have the best marriages, and they don't. Some do, but just being a religious person won't cause a person to keep their vows anymore than someone who is an atheist.
I think your last sentence is exactly correct. To me, be they secular or religious, ONLY make vows you take seriously, and be aware that sticking to them will sometimes be hard work.
Marriage is a long term view that short term difficulties can be overcome for overall benefit to both partners. At least, it should be that.
Religion can help or hinder, depending on lots of context.
Which you seem well aware of!!
Yeah...so...comments like this make people wonder if you're repressed.
I mean to say, I'm not about to become gay. So that's one straight dude. Tom seems unlikely to become straight. So there's a gay dude. Sorry for making assumptions, @columbus)
And all the social convention in the world won't change either situation. So what exactly is the point of assuming everyone would become homosexual?
Wtf. Your morals are in the gutter. I don't know what else to say to this mess.
In fact, if the gay population went up by several hundred percent for some reason, that would be about a quarter of the total. Reducing the birth rate, voluntarily, by a similar amount would be a great thing for everyone. It might make the difference between survival of the human race as we know it and the end of it.
Tom
Skwim
Veteran Member
Variation in divorce rates by religion:
Religion % have been divorced
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Religion % have been divorced
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I'm glad for that, but that doesn't change anything about the issues I raised.
Does it not concern you that a country like Sweden would have such laws, use them to prosecute him to begin with, and then have the court initially find him guilty and hand down a jail sentence for it? Your respect for freedom and speech and religion, as a country, has to dive pretty far before you are able to get away with that.
And even after being aquited on appeal, the state is willing to take it all the way to the supreme court because they want to see him in jail for what he did.
Actually, the Swedish supreme court said that he would have been found guilty according to Swedish law, but declined to find him guilty because European treaties overruled Swedish law to guarantee him freedom of expression and religion.
I apologize for not checking that particular source more carefully. However, because there are so many stories like it that are true, several of which I posted, the basic points I was making about the persecution of Christians for their religious beliefs on homosexuality in western society remains unchanged.
You didn't misrepresent me in any way.Tom seems unlikely to become straight. So there's a gay dude. Sorry for making assumptions,@columbus)
But to add a bit of detail, I had a baby back when I was 20. S/he miscarried at about 5 weeks. My partner Doug is just as queer as I am. But he has 4 kids and now a flock of grandkids. A good friend in college got married when his girlfriend got pregnant. They had another child 2 years later. 2 years after that she came out and divorced him. It all worked out perfectly for her, she was a young lesbian with 2 kids and a major meal ticket.
Tom
First of all, Godwin much? And how the flying spaghetti monster does that relate to retail?
No one in Retail is told to throw Jews in the oven, they're told to bake a goddamned cake or give flowers to a person. To even pretend they are on the same level is quite insulting to holocaust survivors. Shame on you. Don't use one of the world's biggest massacres to hide behind like a coward. It's distasteful at best.
Secondly, in the real world, if you don't like what your boss tells you to do, then get another job, as you Americans are so fond of pointing out. So a business specifically provides a service to the public. They rely on the supply and demand thing. So if you only serve the people you agree with, you're limiting your customer base and therefore your profits. I mean you can, if you so desire. But it's ultimately idiotic and bad business practice.
Thirdly, even Jesus told his followers to pray in private!
Fourth of course religion is a private matter. Not even priests are so arrogant and obnoxious to go around proclaiming their religion. A person has the right to follow whatever religion they so desire, they do not get the right to use those restrictions upon other people not of their religion. We call that a theocracy.
Fifthly weddings are public because well, how the hell do you make that private? You still need to buy stuff. But here's the thing. First ever thing you learn in retail, your customer's life is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. You're not there to personally approve of whatever the hell they are doing. You are there to provide a service. Nothing more nothing less. So either do your job like a professional person, who by default puts away their own personal feelings and gets on with the job at hand. Or find another job.
Do you really think that everyone I have served at my job I personally agree with? That I have not implicitly provided avenues for things I find "sinful?" On a morality level I mean.
Nope. You know why? Because my work life is not my private life. I have to act like a professional, work with people I don't like, serve people I probably would find repugnant in real life, because that is the job I have.
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Secular law has to apply to everyone equally, yes? If you advertise to the public that you provide a service, you don't get to pick and choose who your customer is. That's basic capitalism in action. You supply a demand. Do you honestly think that every single customer that these same bakeries or wedding planners provide their services to, honestly truly follow every commandment? That not a single customer does something in their private life that is not objected to in some form or another by these same retailers? I find that hard to believe, unless they are in the habit of asking very intrusive and personal questions of every single customer they serve.
So this bluster of "oh it's my religious conviction" pfft. Nothing but a lame excuse to hide behind.
As for this pastor, from your own link and I quote
"But the church is also registered as a for-profit business and city officials said that means the owners must comply with state and federal regulations."
Aww they don't get to break the law, how sad for said Pastor. Like really? If he ran only church services, you'd have a point. But as soon as you run it like a business that is obliged to follow secular law, well you don't get to have special treatment anymore. You have to follow the rules just like everyone else.
All this bluster all this "oh woe unto me, I have to participate in X" it just comes across as a toddler tantrum, really. It's quite sad, tbh.
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I know a lot of Swedes (I work for a Swedish company). They run the full gamut, as any population does, but overall they are very nice and tolerant people. I can't speak for them, but since you're asking me, I think many would be confused by American definitions of freedom. Their world view is not the same. They consider the ears of the listener and the mouth of the speaker to both hold value. From an American point of view, this amounts to censorship of personal freedom of speech (and I would agree).
According to the Cato institute, their view of freedom has plumetted all the way to 15th in the world. With the US at 23rd.
In particular, frredom of movement and procedural law are areas where freedoms are rated much more highly than the US.
So, rest assured, they are not on a Christian witch-hunt. Their laws regarding hate speech are not my cup of tea, but they're as likely to protect Christians as not.
Both Sweden and the USA measured 10/10 for religious freedoms, btw. You should peruse the result set. A summary is available by country.
Promise I won't brag that Australia came in at 6.
Yep. Apology accepted. It happens. I think Christians are being persecuted. Just not in Western society. Don't think we'll come to a common view on that, but if Christianity makes the grade for 'Persecuted Peoples' in the US, who is it you think is NOT persecuted?
kaoticprofit
Active Member
Fake news??? Where's your source!