Homosexuality and religious.

[Gargovic Malkav]

With all due respect, claiming that there is more than one acceptable response to "homosexuality is a shameful aberration that needs purging from the world" shows a person's true position on the issue. And that position is clearly homophobic.

I can't deny that any opinion against homosexuality and/or related natures/acts are by definition homophobic, but not necessarily intolerant or hateful.
When the person in question lives by such standards, but feels that what other people do is their business without any hard feelings on that matter, I wouldn't call such an individual hateful/intolerant, but rather the contrary.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I practice not for others, So how other people want to practice the law given by God to those who believe in God, that is not up to me to judge.

So if a bunch of people decide to practice God's law by killing every homosexual they meet, you wouldn't judge that as being wrong?

 

[KWED]

Well, still waiting for evidence for how you demonstrate that another person is wrong?

We have long since established that this kind of conversation with you is pointless, as you don't even accept that reality exists, let alone any axiomatic standards of social behaviour.
You don't believe that torturing babies to death is "wrong" because you don't accept that there is such a thing as "wrong".

 

[Spirit of Light]

So if a bunch of people decide to practice God's law by killing every homosexual they meet, you wouldn't judge that as being wrong?

What the hell is this for a question?

I want to live a peaceful life with no enemies or no hate.
If I can stop a murder i will even if I die my self.

I hate nobody and don't want homosexual people to be hurt

 

[KWED]

The Baha’i teachings teach us what is right and wrong. Why should we accept what others say is right or wrong? Who decides what is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral? You? Me? Popular opinion? The government? I prefer to trust in God not the fallible error prone mind of man.

Well, your first problem is that you can't prove that a god even exists. You are simply taking the statements of one person as the infallible word of god when the more rational explanation is that he was just delusional or dishonest.

So, the actual question is do we base our moral framework on a combination of proven evolutionary traits like empathy and altruism, medical and scientific evidence, legal precedent, social consensus, etc. Or do we base it on what some 19th century Persian bloke said?

If you prefer the latter, you'll need a pretty good explanation why. And then you can tell me why he hates gays so much.

 

[KWED]

Everyone has the right to believe. But what we have here is antagonism because we believe differently.

No. It is not because you believe differently. It because your beliefs include some rather unpleasant homophobia.
If you refused to work with a colleague because you claimed their homosexuality was evil, immoral and a shameful aberration that needs purging from the earth, you would be straight down to HR, and probably suspended, even sacked.

Believe me, if someone tries to hurt or harm a homosexual friend, I am the first to come to his defence

Does he know that you genuinely, sincerely believe homosexuality is evil, immoral and a shameful aberration that needs purging from the earth?
Tell him and let me know what he said.

but that doesn’t mean I’m going to sleep with him.

Why on earth would you think that not being homophobic means you need to be homosexual yourself?

 

[KWED]

The phobic label is an emotional manipulation tactic, designed by the Left, to create compliance to bad ideas, by using the good nature of religious and all good people, against them. The result of this tactic is that common sense reason will come in conflict with emotions, thereby inhibiting sound reasoning. The antidote is to judge yourself, in terms of your heart, to see if there is hate or not, and if not, then be calm and rely on your reasoning. Don't let the emotional manipulation judge for you, and inhibit reason and common sense. Like in the market place you do not have to buy every product, out of fear of being called a hater. The Left does not believe in a free market. Like gas they raised the price of free thinking.

Where I first fully understood this tactic was when I was watching stand up comedy on cable, which can be insulting to everyone. If you are secure in yourself and do not define yourself with a mask or group label, you should be able to laugh at yourself, since comedy exaggerates the generic herd masks, for the laugh. When everyone is laughing, superficial and collective walls that once divided us, come down, and we all seem to be one smiling family. We could have religious and atheists, black and white, male and female and all in-between in a comedy club. If we are all laughing, we become one family. Look in each others eyes and you will see familiar. There is something deeper than the shallows of groups, that comedy targets.

The political left started to call comedy hate and phobic, if it addressed any of their social engineering experiments. This made no sense, since everyone was laughing and full of joy, not hate. Why are they calling joy, hate or fear? I decided not to allow others to accuse me of something, that was not true, to inhibit and silence me and provide themselves cover against observation and reasoning.

Before contemporary woman's liberation; 1960's, male and female cultures were more segregated. Men, in preparation for life; husband and father and war, would try to strengthen each other. Part of this training was connected to emotional toughness, by insulting each other, with clever whit and comedy. Like in football, nobody wants to get emotionally hit, but the more times that happens, in practice, the less it hurts. The idea behind this tough emotional training was, the other teams of life and war want to hurt you bad, so you and your team need to practice hurting each other; controlled experiments, so in the day of competition, one is immune to physical and emotional pain, so life becomes easier.

As women left the home, and came into the the male dominated job market, women were not used to this male tradition; being hard, rude, but playful as a team. The males tried to welcome the smaller numbers of females to the male dominate world. But the females had their own traditions. They were more two faced; insult behind the back but friendly to the face. They were taken back by the open honesty designed to get under one's emotional skin; practice to harden emotions to insults. Men were force to change this age old team behavior, in favor the female traditions. This increasingly led to over sensitize emotions in males and females since son's never were able to learn, properly.

Instead of taking hits, in practice, one had to go into the game of life, unprepared, and overly sensitive to even minor hits. The accusation of phobia and hate was now easier to induce. Culture would have been better off, letting the males lead, instead of allowing a smaller groups to control the larger, like we have today. The larger group has the advantage and this is where everyone can learn the map to that success. This is finally being reversed. Women in sports are learning how this team toughening for adversity, helps with life; strong body and level head in times of stress. The Left tried to take them out with transgender dominance in female sports; instill compliance to a small group. They were called haters for fighting back.

That's quite the imagination you have there.
Well, whatever helps you justify intolerance, discrimination, oppression, etc.

 

[KWED]

Oh i for the most part get why God say what God say. But how to fully practice it in my own life is sometimes not that easy. So finding the deeper sense of the truth is what takes time.

So why does god hate homosexuality so much?
This is what I have been trying to get to, but you keep avoiding it. But now you tell me you know why. So let's hear it...

 

[Spirit of Light]

So why does god hate homosexuality so much?
This is what I have been trying to get to, but you keep avoiding it. But now you tell me you know why. So let's hear it...

I can not answer for God, because I am not God.

I am not able to read Gods mind

 

[KWED]

Its not sugar coated but just because we see it differently doesn’t mean it’s homophobia. You’re playing this card but Baha’is see homosexuals as human beings worthy of love and friendship.

This is pointless.
I quoted you the virulently homophobic language in Bahai writings. You accept that it is there. Yet you still claim that Bahaism is not homophobic.

Saying that homosexuality is "a shameful sexual aberration that needs to be purged from the planet" is the definition of homophobic bigotry.
If you put those words in a political pamphlet you might well be arrested for hate speech. You would certainly be condemned by politicians and commentators across the political spectrum.

 

[KWED]

You leave out the difference between God and them. As far as I can tell, they believe in sins, but they believe God is the one that holds judgment over that.
They are in effect for some of their posts saying the following. They judge their own individual behaviour using God's words, but they don't judge other humans in God's name using God's word.

Well, you obviously haven't been following the conversations.
Bahai teachings say that homosexuality is "a shameful aberration that needs to be purged from the world".
That is not "judging their own behaviour". That is judging others, and telling them they are morally inferior.

 

[KWED]

Bingo..

Bahai teaching judge others. It its intolerant of homosexuality and judges homosexuals to be morally inferior. The words are quite clear - "a shameful sexual aberration that needs to be purged from the world". How on earth is that "judging your own behaviour"?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well, you obviously haven't been following the conversations.
Bahai teachings say that homosexuality is "a shameful aberration that needs to be purged from the world".
That is not "judging their own behaviour". That is judging others, and telling them they are morally inferior.

You "forgetting" to see the rest of the teaching that has a beautiful teaching of how to become a better human being.

In every debate, you pick only what you can find that you see as the worsed of the worsed within religion.

You are not here to debate, you are here to find fault in everything you can.

 

[KWED]

That’s you’re words out of context. The Baha’i Writings condemn all forms of immorality such as adultery, pedophilia etc.

Ok. So not only are you confirming that Bahaism considers homosexuality to be immoral, but that it can be grouped with child abuse.
You're not really thinking this through, are you?

 

[KWED]

Rape is violating someones privacy by force, that is illegal by law,

But if god said it was ok, you would consider it ok, yes? You value god's word over man-made laws on moral issues, correct?

Whatvtwo people on the street does to each others in free will is not my business.
This morning I saw two femalse holding hands and Kissing, its their choice

But you consider them to be engaged in a shameful sexual aberration that needs to be purged from the world. Correct?

 

[KWED]

Yes if Christians did that then they would be wrong and going against what God has taught. They would be following the ways of the world and not the ways of Jesus.
It would probably be worse than you following the ways of the world and the spirit of the age and condemning religious people for nothing.
The truth of the Bible has not changed but hopefully many religious people have changed and are not prejudiced against gays now. That is a good thing and not something to be condemned.

Have you read the Bible? It has a few things to say about homosexuality. None of it pleasant.

 

[KWED]

Well, religion and God is in effect not a single universal unity. But, yes, there are versions I oppose and others I can accept in the end.
And I will never do like you and try to just go for the hate and bad.

I see little point in opposing things I consider good or harmless.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We have long since established that this kind of conversation with you is pointless, as you don't even accept that reality exists, let alone any axiomatic standards of social behaviour.
You don't believe that torturing babies to death is "wrong" because you don't accept that there is such a thing as "wrong".

No, I don't like that. But that doesn't make it wrong. Read some skepticism and learn that morality is in you as to you. There is no wrong out there like say gravity in what some people call objective reality.

And no, I am not a metaphysical solipsist. I do a variant of phenomenology and that includes a version of realism.
I just don't believe in the same variant of reality as you, but I do believe in reality.

So you didn't give evidence for wrong people. Don't you understand how evidence works? Oh, don't tell me, that you are a believer, who doesn't understand how evidence work? Well, for now, you are one of those who confuses independent of and dependent on brains at least in one case. And that is not limited to religious believers.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well, you obviously haven't been following the conversations.
Bahai teachings say that homosexuality is "a shameful aberration that needs to be purged from the world".
That is not "judging their own behaviour". That is judging others, and telling them they are morally inferior.

Yeah, there are no moral superior or inferior humans, just as there are no morally wrong people. Of course unless you believe that. But it is still without evidence.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I see little point in opposing things I consider good or harmless.

Bingo. Consider. That is in you. I consider as something in me that killing babies is wrong to me as a feeling. Learn the limits of evidence.