Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

It seems to me, and I think some others may agree, that 'bantering back and forth' is a Tb-ism for posters expressing their opinions of the irrationality of many of her beliefs...

Wrong again. You do not know what is in my mind, you just believe you do.
And what about the irrationality of your Trinity three-in-one God beliefs? Shall we discuss those?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Ill let the theists answer that since its them making a claim about reality. As it is we defer to the axioms that science uses for these debates. Do you think those axioms are insufficient?

Well, yes, in that there is no one strongly correct set. There are several sets possible and I don't know which one is correct in the end.

 

[dybmh]

I have not looked in to all of the replies

That's OK. I saw some of your other replies. They helped me understand your point of view.

 

[F1fan]

Well, yes, in that there is no one strongly correct set. There are several sets possible and I don't know which one is correct in the end.

We use the most consistent and reliable, and if there is data that something is better, science will adjust and use it. As it is the axioms do not uinclude a supernatural. So when a theist claims that a god, or angels, or demons, or some other supernatural, or non-natural, phenomenon exists, it's on them to provide the axiomatic basis AND the evidence.

Thus far the best theists can offer is: I heard it from a friend, or I read it in a book, or I had an experience, etc.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We use the most consistent and reliable, and if there is data that something is better, science will adjust and use it. As it is the axioms do not uinclude a supernatural. So when a theist claims that a god, or angels, or demons, or some other supernatural, or non-natural, phenomenon exists, it's on them to provide the axiomatic basis AND the evidence.

Thus far the best theists can offer is: I heard it from a friend, or I read it in a book, or I had an experience, etc.

Well, as long as you understand that better has no objective referent and is tied to this:
Science has limits: A few things that science does not do - Understanding Science
we can agree.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's OK. I saw some of your other replies. They helped me understand your point of view.

I think each person should choose what is right for them

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why did you think that this was "well worth reading," and why did you think to include it in this thread? Is this being offered as evidence of divine prescience?

When one meditates on this tablet, it covers all aspects of life and the aspect that covers this topic is chastity and purity

But you are correct, I should not have offered it, as there is much content that deflects from this topic. It was a mistake to offer it.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

When one meditates on this tablet, it covers all aspects of life and the aspect that covers this topic is chastity and purity

But you are correct, I should not have offered it, as there is much content that deflects from this topic. It was a mistake to offer it.

Regards Tony

What I found interesting is the way that the topic of homosexuality is spoken about in that tablet. ( If I understood what was written ) Again, the words could be interpretted in ways which do not discriminate against gay people.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What I found interesting is the way that the topic of homosexuality is spoken about in that tablet. ( If I understood what was written ) Again, the words could be interpretted in ways which do not discriminate against gay people.

Thank you for that reply, I was not thinking about all the references to other aspects in that Tablet, but later realised people would. I see the Tablet is to encourage us to consider as to why God does give Laws.

I see it encourages us to find a new level of morality based in purity and cleanliness and that is what God's Laws are given to us for, as this state of being enables our spirituality to grow.

It is a difficult world to live in, even the language has become foul. Where I live the foulest of words are now adjectives, and most shows on TV feel that this is now acceptable to expose our children to.

Regards Tony

 

[ppp]

What I found interesting is the way that the topic of homosexuality is spoken about in that tablet. ( If I understood what was written ) Again, the words could be interpretted in ways which do not discriminate against gay people.

How do you tell someone that they have a shameful affliction in a manner that does not lead to discrimination?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How do you tell someone that they have a shameful affliction in a manner that does not lead to discrimination?

I see It needs us to embrace dialogues about hygiene, cleanliness and purity.

The only way we can address these topics is education and the best education is the examples we set for our children. That comment will also open a can of worms!

The issue we have, is a lot of people have been born this side of the sexual revolution, which was a liberty carried way to far, another can of worms.

I hesitate to say much. Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

Thank you for that reply, I was not thinking about all the references to other aspects in that Tablet, but later realised people would. I see the Tablet is to encourage us to consider as to why God does give Laws.

ok, that makes sense

I see it encourages us to find a new level of morality based in purity and cleanliness and that is what God's Laws are given to us for, as this state of being enables our spirituality to grow.

Respectfully, based on a simple literal understanding of the words in the tablet, Gay people don't need to be excluded. There's nothing that explicitly denies homosexual behavior. Unless I missed it?

It is a difficult world to live in, even the language has become foul. Where I live the foulest of words are now adjectives, and most shows on TV feel that this is now acceptable to expose our children to.

Easy solution, I basically never watch tv. So, I don't know what's being broadcast to be honest. Around here, TV's are going away. People stream everything now. And that means the person chooses for themself, to a large degree, what to see and hear. So I choose to see and hear nothing. It's nice.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then I accept your apology, as I missed your post.

Thanks Sheldon. I figured you might have missed it since you go through so many posts.

You have my sympathies, and my wife for the record left one day while I was in work, I got a note, followed by a solicitors letter, and after living off me for 20 years, she took every penny I had the same day I lost my job. I'd been saving to retire through I'll health, working silly hours while she worked part time. We had no children, a sacrifice I made so that she could repair her relationship with her children from the first marriage. I owned the house before we met, and paid off the mortgage before we married, and she took half its value, to run off with someone else. The grandchildren have been brought to visit me once in the last 3 years. She's made zero effort to help them see me, and even threatened to stop me seeing them in the note.

I'm now working 70 hours a week 250 miles from my home to try and have enough to live on. On prescription pain killers.

Thanks for your understanding. I did not want to announce what happened with my late husband but it managed to slip out a few times so some people here know about it.

I had no idea you have been through all of that and are still going through it. That sounds positively painful. A few years ago, I had a Buddhist friend whose wife of 23 years just up and left him for another man, and after that he was reticent to trust another woman. It sounds like you made a lot of sacrifices and she took advantage of you and then just up and left. It is hard for me to believe that people can be that selfish. That does not speak well about her character. It is better to be alone than married to such a person even though it can be difficult being alone. It is especially difficult if children or grandchildren are involved in a marital dispute or breakup.

I've reached the stage where life starts to take, instead of give, but I remain as positive as I can, because being depressed won't help anything.

Life never gave me a whole lot, except endless misery. However, I managed to keep going. For years I pinched pennies but that finally turned around and I did pretty well economically. I worked for most of what I have, worked and saved and invested all my life. I am grateful for what I have but it is difficult to find myself suddenly alone, as it was unexpected. Unlike many people, I do not do that well alone, although it is not so much because I am lonely. I just need a lot of help taking care of certain things I cannot do by myself. If I lived in a retirement home where everything is taken care of it would be different, but I need a house for my eight cats who are my constant companions.

I agree that getting depressed only makes things much worse, so I do everything I can to say above the depression, and that includes posting a lot here which helps me keep my mind off the sad things.

You never know what others are going through, and pain though a subjective concept, is likely something most people have to deal with, if they're lucky it's an infrequent occurrence, I've not been so lucky, but hey ho...

No, we can never know what others are going through unless they share it, and suffering is very subjective, so no one can understand the suffering of another person unless they have been through a similar life experience, in which case they can understand to a certain extent.

It is quite true that some don't suffer much at all. The way we can know that is by what they say; they say they have been lucky in life and have been happy most of the time. That is hard for me to even imagine, having come from the opposite end of the spectrum.

Indeed, some people suffer a whole lot more than others through no fault of their own, I once posted a thread about that. I attribute that kind of suffering to fate, not free will, since it is not chosen, and God is left holding the bag since God determines our fate. Some religionists want to argue against that to protect God, but they cannot do so without a plethora of religious apologetics and denying what is in their own scriptures.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can one person have so little insight?

How can one person be so critical of another person all the time?

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

 

[dybmh]

How do you tell someone that they have a shameful affliction in a manner that does not lead to discrimination?

From what I can tell, it doesn't say that. This is what it says: (Emphasis Mine)

Observe how pleasing is cleanliness in the sight of God, and how specifically it is emphasized in the Holy Books of the Prophets; for the Scriptures forbid the eating or the use of any unclean thing. Some of these prohibitions were absolute, and binding upon all, and whoso transgressed the given law was abhorred of God and anathematized by the believers. Such, for example, were things categorically forbidden, the perpetration of which was accounted a most grievous sin, among them actions so loathsome that it is shameful even to speak their name.​

And then later this:

O Divine Providence! Bestow Thou in all things purity and cleanliness upon the people of Bahá. Grant that they be freed from all defilement, and released from all addictions. Save them from committing any repugnant act, unbind them from the chains of every evil habit, that they may live pure and free, wholesome and cleanly, worthy to serve at Tevhy Sacred Threshold and fit to be related to their Lord. Deliver them from intoxicating drinks and tobacco, save them, rescue them, from this opium that bringeth on madness, suffer them to enjoy the sweet savours of holiness, that they may drink deep of the mystic cup of heavenly love and know the rapture of being drawn ever closer unto the Realm of the All-Glorious. For it is even as Thou hast said: ‘All that thou hast in thy cellar will not appease the thirst of my love—bring me, O cup-bearer, of the wine of the spirit a cup full as the sea!’​

I can't find anything that explicitly forbids homosexual behavior. Maybe it's alluded to as "actions so loathsome" and "evil habit". But maybe not. The rest of the document is more about abstainence from substances. The point is, so far no one has provided a direct quote from the "manifestation of God" regarding homosexual behavior. It seems to me that there should be / could be some wiggle room on how Gay people are treated in the Baha'i faith if this is what the law is based on.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have not looked in to all of the replies

How could you? That would take an eternity!

 

[CG Didymus]

It is a personal matter between the person and God. It’s not for others to judge or interfere.

But the Baha'i leadership does interfere. The Faith does not want them being openly gay and saying they are Baha'is. So, it is no longer personal. And it is other Baha'is that reports them to the LSA's and NSA's.

Meet A Baha’i Activist Pushing For LGBTQ Tolerance In His Faith

 

[Spirit of Light]

But the Baha'i leadership does interfere. The Faith does not want them being openly gay and saying they are Baha'is. So, it is no longer personal. And it is other Baha'is that reports them to the LSA's and NSA's.

Meet A Baha’i Activist Pushing For LGBTQ Tolerance In His Faith

People are different in Baha'i Faith too, Baha'i is not made in a mold, they come in all forms, color, nationality. Cultures.
So yes some will be gay, some are not.

People live their life as they understand is right for them. If God disagree, it is between God and that one person.

Judgment is wrong.

 

[CG Didymus]

Different religious texts use various texts. The actual word homosexuality was first used not universally in 1868 so usually in scripture you will find the ‘act’ described but not the word homosexuality.

150 years ago, the word ‘homosexual’ was coined in a secret correspondence

Baha’u’llah described it in His Most Holy Book thus.

“We shrink, for very shame, from treating of the subject of boys. Fear ye the Merciful, O peoples of the world! Commit not that which is forbidden you in Our Holy Tablet, and be not of those who rove distractedly in the wilderness of their desires.”

The Kitab-i-Aqdas
Bahá’u’lláh

That is the quote that is used to make the law that makes homosexuality forbidden? I asked if it specifically mentions "homosexuality"

Is there a law where Baha'u'llah specifically says that homosexuality is forbidden?

And you said, "yes".

Yes in the Most Holy Book.

But it doesn't mention homosexuality. So, who made the law that does specifically say that homosexuality is forbidden?

 

[CG Didymus]

Much of humanity’s slow progress i believe has been due to not following the divine laws. Had we done so our energies would have been directed towards improving the quality of life instead of conquering others and fighting wars.

Here I thought Krishna told Arjuna to go ahead and fight. And I thought God told his people to go fight and conquer the land of Canaan?