Homosexuality and religious.

[Vinayaka]

I was talking about the Baha’i teaching about non involvement in politics. Nothing to do with prejudice against Baha’is. Some did the wrong thing so suffered the consequences.

We consider all peoples as equals. There is no such teaching targeting anyone.

I didn't realise that now women are allowed on your UHJ. When did that policy change? So sorry I'm out of date on recent developments.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Is it possible you are mistaken in your religious beliefs?

Is it possible that the god you think exists doesn't?

I am fallible and make many mistakes. Human reason cannot convey perfect knowledge but a Manifestation of God I believe does so through His Writings which are embedded with the Holy Spirit which can enable man to attain certainty.

The bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained.
'Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p.297;

 

[loverofhumanity]

I see the good in homosexauls and include them as full members of humanity: Do you that as a full member for them or are their membership partial as a member of Bahia?
And I don't accept you to answer that in full. But you could surprise me.

Surprise!

The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstances; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Bahá'í Teachings. (House of Justice)

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I am fallible and make many mistakes. Human reason cannot convey perfect knowledge but a Manifestation of God I believe does so through His Writings which are embedded with the Holy Spirit which can enable man to attain certainty.

The bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained.
'Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p.297;

I am so fallible that I don't believe that God exists or doesn't exist. As for me as me, I am so fallible that I can both believe and don't believe and for the everyday world I don't care one way or another.
So we don't even agree on how to do fallible.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Surprise!

The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstances; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Bahá'í Teachings. (House of Justice)

Or not, because your God is not the only God, I could choose to believe in.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Or not, because your God is not the only God, I could choose to believe in.

Of course.

 

[dybmh]

anything which causes us to turn against Him is not in humanity’s best interests.

Baha’u’llah described it in His Most Holy Book thus.

“We shrink, for very shame, from treating of the subject of boys. Fear ye the Merciful, O peoples of the world! Commit not that which is forbidden you in Our Holy Tablet, and be not of those who rove distractedly in the wilderness of their desires.”

The Kitab-i-Aqdas

It seems to me that this quote could be interpretted in a way which does not discriminate against homosexuality. If "anything which causes us to turn against Him is not in humanity’s best interests", then why don't Baha'i consider reinterpretting Baha'u'llah's words for the sake of humanity?

 

[dybmh]

Through the Holy Spirit embedded in the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

The Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained.
'Abdu'l-Bahá,

Through my soul.

THOU hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. (Baha’u’llah)

Ok, this is facinating. This is the first time I've heard of a Baha'i using their soul to determine the validity of Baha'u'llah's station and message. In the past it's always been investigation of his claims, intelligence, and reason. All of these are aspects of the mind, the intellect. If it's the soul that ultimatley leads to certainty, then first one needs to be convinced of the existence of the soul. One needs to become accustomed to it and how it operates. Then, only then, will a person be convinced of Baha'u'llah's station. Yes?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The test is:follow God or follow body and lust. Can't do both.

For me, the choice is to believe by faith and follow others, or to use my own faculties. Lust is a gift if one applies reason and conscience to the impulse. It powers reproduction in both man and the beasts, but in man, it is divine. Sexual pleasure can be a spiritual experience when sex is performed mindfully. The Hindus seem to have a bead on that, whereas the Abrahamic religions went down a different, prudish path that has caused untold unhappiness. They are out of sync with nature and their own natures. Lust is a steed that should be harnessed, not put down.

To regard a person who has a homosexual orientation with prejudice or disdain is entirely against the spirit of the Faith. And where occasion demands, it would be appropriate to speak out or act against unjust or oppressive measures directed towards homosexuals. (House of Justice)

You might want to spend a few moments thinking about how those words are received by you audience here. To do that, you'll need to think about what they have told you about how they understand your scripture, even though that is not what you believe. You seem blinded by your own religion if you can write something like that. Again, I realize that that is not how you see it, but how you see it is not what's relevant in understanding how your words are understood by others not motivated like the Baha'i are to not see the bigotry in those scriptures.

A Prophet doesn’t appease and compromise so receives lots of antagonism and hostility.

And I suppose that you read that as the prophet is correct and those objecting are not. Not in this case. The prophet deserves the hostility according to rational ethics if he takes and promotes a homophobic position. A humanist doesn't compromise there, either.

Whether it follows critical thinking or not, human reasoning is imperfect.

No, when critical thinking is performed and applied properly, it generates demonstrably sound conclusions. A skilled critical thinker can make a mistake, but he has a means of identifying and correcting it. The faith-based thinker has no such yardstick for accuracy. In fact, he's pretty much guaranteed to be wrong if his idea is falsifiable, and "not even wrong" when it's not. The two aren't comparable except both being ways of deciding what is true, and only one of these methods generates sound (demonstrably correct) conclusions. The other will almost never do that. What are the odds of guessing the truth correctly absent supporting evidence? However-many-wrong-answers-there-can be:1. If there are a million wrong guesses, as with a lottery, and only one correct choice, it's nearly 1,000,000:1 against being correct.

The human mind I believe is a remarkable tool and used for the betterment of people, an asset to humanity. My mind is just as imperfect and I make mistakes just like any person can.

If one thinks by faith, he makes more mistakes than those who prefer reason applied to relevant evidence. Faith is not a path to truth. Why? It's not a path at all. It's an open field. A path constrains choices and takes one to a desired destination, in this case, sound conclusions. The rules of critical thinking are such a path. Deviations from the path are called fallacies.

As long as people accept each other as equal fellow human beings we people can be united, for the one thing we have is our common humanity.

Except for the intolerant, the cruel, and the criminal. We do not accept them as equals. We don't want to be united with them. If we can't prevent them, then we should segregate ourselves and one another from them. But for the rest of humankind, yes.

However, the Baha'i don't quite do that when it comes to homosexuals (or anybody else having sexual relations outside of marriage even when legal and consensual). Humanists do and beseech you to reconsider your religious teaching and ask you to use your conscience rather than your holy book for guidance there. Be kind, not religious. The two may overlap a lot in your faith, but not in this area, and the lack of overt hatred in your heart is not enough to humanist eyes to say that you are not contributing to the needless hardship systemic homophobia imposes on some of our fellow human beings.

 

[dybmh]

It is supposed to be a hard test

Hey, you're back in the thread. What do you think of all this?

 

[Sheldon]

Whether it follows critical thinking or not, human reasoning is imperfect.

Restating an irrelevant straw man, while ignoring the fact you used a circular reasoning fallacy, might be seen as dishonest, and not debating in good faith.

You assumed your conclusion in your premise, if it was an error that led you to such poor or weak reasoning, then why are you deliberately ignoring your error? Here it is again then:

loverofhumanity said: ↑
Yes we believe that. God created us so He knows what is best for us.

NB note the begging the questions fallacy where you make an unevidenced assumption about the very thing you are arguing for, in other words you assume your conclusion in your premise, which is a circular reasoning fallacy.

Yes all human reasoning is fallible, it cannot be otherwise, though of course this includes all religious claims and reasoning, as it is humans that are making these, and even more so when they make obviously irrational claims and arguments, as of course you just did.

 

[Sheldon]

As long as people accept each other as equal fellow human beings we people can be united, for the one thing we have is our common humanity.

Why do I get the feeling the irony of that claim, in this thread, is entirely lost on you?

 

[Sheldon]

Also, most atheists are agnostic. They haven't ruled gods in or out. Both of those are logical errors. Both.

Precisely so, it was also pretty disingenuous of @loverofhumanity to imply atheists generally deal in absolutes when they don't, and more than a little hypocritical when he and other Bahai's have claimed to be 100% certain of their belief, and failed to see any irony at all.

 

[Sheldon]

I am fallible and make many mistakes. Human reason cannot convey perfect knowledge but a Manifestation of God I believe does so through His Writings which are embedded with the Holy Spirit which can enable man to attain certainty.

The bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained.
'Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p.297;

Absolute certainty isn't infallible reasoning, it's the very definition of closed minded. Uncritical adherence to dogma is not sound reasoning either, it is the very definition of indoctrination.

If your prophet's words were infallible, then they'd never contain human ignorance, prejudice and bigotry like homophobia. It's an obvious logical contradiction, when theists claim their beliefs are divine diktat and infallible, then it turns out to mirror human fallibility.

 

[Sheldon]

Surprise!

The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstances; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Bahá'í Teachings. (House of Justice)

Being gay is not engaging in practices, it is part of who a person is. This is a weak and ignorant human prejudice, to call it infallible and divine is demonstrably irrational.

 

[F1fan]

I am fallible and make many mistakes. Human reason cannot convey perfect knowledge but a Manifestation of God I believe does so through His Writings which are embedded with the Holy Spirit which can enable man to attain certainty.

Reasoning is skilled thinking that follows a set of rules that helps us attain the most reliable conclusions. To say “perfect knowledge” is irrelevant. You use this phrase to imply there is such knowledge and a way to attain it. What means do your posts reveal you use? Your unreasonable thinking. Its flawed thinking. You admit to having flawed thinking ability and then go on making references to a God and texts as if we all assume they are true. This is special pleading. You admit limited thinking ability and then go ahead with believing what your thinking concludes.

Can you concede that your thinking and beliefs ate not rational and that you have motivation to believe that is not sound logical thinking?

 

[F1fan]

I was talking about the Baha’i teaching about non involvement in politics. Nothing to do with prejudice against Baha’is. Some did the wrong thing so suffered the consequences.

We consider all peoples as equals. There is no such teaching targeting anyone.

You also brought up how the Bahai are targeted, so i made the point of irony in how Bahai targets gays. What did you do? Did you listen and learn something, or did you get defensive?

My consistent question to believers is how their religion makes them better people, because we often see their religion bring out bad qualities.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Hey, you're back in the thread. What do you think of all this?

I have not looked in to all of the replies

 

[F1fan]

Unless you can give objective evidence for what objective reality is in itself, the problem is not limited to religious people.

Ill let the theists answer that since its them making a claim about reality. As it is we defer to the axioms that science uses for these debates. Do you think those axioms are insufficient?

 

[Trailblazer]

You appear to believe that you are unique in terms of suffering, Tb. You are not.

How would you EVER know what I believe about my suffering? Can you read my mind?

I know that other people suffer, but I cannot know if they are suffering, when they are suffering, or what they are suffering from unless they share that with me.
e.g., I now know that @Sheldon has suffered greatly because he shared that with me.