Homosexuality and religious.

[CG Didymus]

Like the one that some believe there is no Higher Intelligence or God despite admitting we do not know everything. Until we do know everything there is to know I believe it is unreasonable to rule out the possibility God exists. Religionists see God in the Prophet and atheists rely on their limited knowledge of the universe in making their assumption.

Are there three main Gods? Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma? Or like many Christians believe? The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit? Since we don't know, then we shouldn't rule these out? But the Baha'i Faith does rule those concepts of God out. The Baha'i concept is what the one true God is really like. And how do we know this? Because the Baha'i prophet said so.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe our existence is dependent on following the laws and counsels of the latest Manifestation of God. Baha’u’llah called on all the world to unite and they ignored Him so we have had two world wars since then.

Homosexuality is only one teaching but it is causing people to turn against the Manifestation and that is not good for our future as our well being and security I believe rests upon turning to the teachings of Baha’u’llah. The more people, the longer and the more reasons people find to turn against God will result in us ignoring the other teachings of Baha’u’llah which can bring peace and prosperity. The longer the world ignores the Manifestation of God the worse the world will become so anything which causes us to turn against Him is not in humanity’s best interests. Atheism and greed are other mindsets which lead us astray. But it’s peoples choice.

And my Evangelical Christian friends say that we must turn to Jesus... that he is coming soon. That many false prophets will arise in the last days and will fool many. So, if the Baha'is are right, those Christians are wrong. Or maybe both of you are wrong. And how would we know unless we check out what the religions are saying and doing.

 

[CG Didymus]

All about the strategy. Sad. Evade. Change the topic. Ignore. Just do whatever so the topic isn't discussed. This is independent investigation?

What else can they do but support their infallible prophets. Again, why is it the rest of us that are investigating to see if what the Baha'i Fatih says is true or not? For them, it is a done deal, whatever their teachings say, that is the truth.

 

[CG Didymus]

Human reasoning is flawed you admit. That’s what I have been trying to get across all along, that the idea that there is no God is flawed reasoning.

And it is a human that tells as the absolute truth about a God that he claims sent him. And we know some people that claim things like that are phonies. So, can we look at this thing about homosexuality unbiased, you know, with no preconceived beliefs about it being right or wrong. Baha'is can't do that. They are told what they must believe about homosexuality.

 

[CG Didymus]

People are different in Baha'i Faith too, Baha'i is not made in a mold, they come in all forms, color, nationality. Cultures.
So yes some will be gay, some are not.

People live their life as they understand is right for them. If God disagree, it is between God and that one person.

Judgment is wrong.

Well, you're a perfect example. What did you believe about gays prior to becoming a Baha'i? Now that you are a Baha'i, has your beliefs about gays changed?

 

[CG Didymus]

Well if Baha’u’llah is calling for religions to reconcile their differences or for black and white to be as one how is that harmful?

Good point. We should get rid of all prejudices and end discrimination. So, straights and gays can someday live as one. Oh wait, that's not what the Baha'i Faith teaches. And interestingly, not one quote from Abdul Baha.

Extracts from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh

We shrink for very shame, from treating of the subject of boys. Fear ye the Merciful, O peoples of the world! Commit not that which if forbidden you in Our Holy Tablet, and be not of those who rove distractedly in the wilderness of their desires. (Kitab-i-Aqdas, paragraph 107) [1]

Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concourse of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions. This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you, could ye but perceive it. He who relateth himself to the All-Merciful and committeth satanic deeds, verily he is not of Me. Unto this beareth witness every atom, pebble, tree and fruit, and beyond them this ever-proclaiming, truthful and trustworthy Tongue. (From a previously untranslated Tablet) [2]

Extracts from letters written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi:

...Bahá'u'lláh has spoken very strongly against this shameful sexual aberration, as He has against adultery and immoral conduct in general. We must try and help the soul to overcome them. (25 October 1949) [3]

No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá'u'lláh, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature.

To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap.​

 

[CG Didymus]

I think the answer lay in that one follow God or one follow the body and lust. But can't follow both.

You have found it. And you believe that Baha'u'llah is from God. But that's what is behind so many of these questions, how do you know your prophet and your religion is really from God. And is there even really a God.

Then, maybe it's not homosexuality, but don't most all of us have our own favorite lusts and vices? And who follows God all the time and completely? Is that possible for most people? Or, occasionally, do most people indulge in some physical pleasures? I don't think very many of us are so perfect that, even though we may want to be spiritual all the time, we give in to lusts once in a while. I think we can do both. But some people, in some religions, feel horribly guilty when they "give in" to temptation.

 

[CG Didymus]

Im a male married to a Baha’i woman for 43 years. But all are welcome in my home. All are considered equals.

Here's the quote again. It says that "ye" have been called to purge the world of these things. How are you going to do that? And this is Baha'u'llah calling "ye" to do this.

Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concourse of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions.

So, lecherous people, sodomizers, and adulterers are all welcome and considered equals? Because homosexuals get dumped into this same category.

 

[CG Didymus]

I am fallible and make many mistakes. Human reason cannot convey perfect knowledge but a Manifestation of God I believe does so through His Writings which are embedded with the Holy Spirit which can enable man to attain certainty.

The bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained.
'Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p.297;

Abdul Baha is not the prophet/manifestation. So, why does he, an ordinary human, get to have some of the things he says to be considered the "infallible" truth?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Respectfully, based on a simple literal understanding of the words in the tablet, Gay people don't need to be excluded. There's nothing that explicitly denies homosexual behavior. Unless I missed it?

The tablet talks about what has been forbidden (made law) and then mentions some aspects that have not been totally forbidden, but are still spiritually damaging.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

What else can they do but support their infallible prophets. Again, why is it the rest of us that are investigating to see if what the Baha'i Fatih says is true or not? For them, it is a done deal, whatever their teachings say, that is the truth.

And this particular topic isn't even the worst one. My personal favorite was that copper would turn to gold if left alone for 70 years. I recall that one being defended. One simply cannot imagine what other stuff is hidden in B's yet to be translated or other writings.

 

[Sheldon]

Human reasoning is flawed you admit. That’s what I have been trying to get across all along, that the idea that there is no God is flawed reasoning.

That is pretty disingenuous since atheism is not "the idea there is no deity" atheism is simply the lack or absence of belief.

Admit? Who on earth ever suggested human reasoning could be infallible, this is just a straw man you've created. The reason your flawed reasoning is so obviously weak, is because it is demonstrably irrational, I've pointed out several logical fallacies you keep using, and you've rolled passed this fact without bothering to even acknowledge it. So you obvioysly don't care that that your reasoning is irrational, but that nonetheless means anyone who understands this, will not accept such claims. Like your constant appeal to authority fallacies, since your prophet was human, ipso facto his reasoning cannot be infallible, by your own admission, not without using a special pleading fallacy, which you also have used, and another poster pointed out to you.

Without wishing to be rude or unkind you don't have even the most basic grasp of how to analyse claims rationally, and it's clear you don't care, as all you need do is learn what these fallacies are and what they mean.

Leave aside theistic belief, the fact is you have never learned to reason critically, if you had you'd see how risible many of your claims are, but then I suppose that's a strong motive for remaining ignorant of the most basic logical principles. To preserve a single belief you obviously are emotionally invested in.

There is no belief I wouldn't relinquish if sufficient objective evidence demonstrated it was false. There is no belief I am 100% certain of, I don't even believe that is epistemologically possible. There is no belief I would hold on faith, and no belief I would treat any differently than any other claim.

You quite demonstrably can't say the same. I understand human reason must necessarily be fallible, you don't, as you keep insisting a human's reasoning is an infallible message from a deity, without any objective evidence and that is a special pleading fallacy.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well, you're a perfect example. What did you believe about gays prior to becoming a Baha'i? Now that you are a Baha'i, has your beliefs about gays changed?

In the last 2 years my view on homosexuality has changed. Before I was more of a homophobe. Now I dont bother about them at all

 

[Sheldon]

Through the Holy Spirit embedded in the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

No that's the claim, you used the very same flawed human reasoning everyone else has, but if course you are using it very poorly, as your claim is a special pleading fallacy, that is therefore irrational by definition.

 

[Sheldon]

The Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable.

We already know it isn't, since it includes a typically human prejudice against gay people.

Quod erat demonstrandum

 

[Spirit of Light]

You have found it. And you believe that Baha'u'llah is from God. But that's what is behind so many of these questions, how do you know your prophet and your religion is really from God. And is there even really a God.

Then, maybe it's not homosexuality, but don't most all of us have our own favorite lusts and vices? And who follows God all the time and completely? Is that possible for most people? Or, occasionally, do most people indulge in some physical pleasures? I don't think very many of us are so perfect that, even though we may want to be spiritual all the time, we give in to lusts once in a while. I think we can do both. But some people, in some religions, feel horribly guilty when they "give in" to temptation.

I hold a belief in God, do i know for certain God exists? No, but I believe in the teaching and have faith.

Sex is not wrong if it is for making children, that was the main reason we humans have ability to have sex.

No most people will not be able to control their lust fully. But it is fully possible to do.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I hold a belief in God, do i know for certain God exists? No, but I believe in the teaching and have faith.

Sex is not wrong if it is for making children, that was the main reason we humans have ability to have sex.

No most people will not be able to control their lust fully. But it is fully possible to do.

Now you are talking for all humans. Do as you do. But I am not you. Sorry, but you are doing a "we", that is not there in the everyday world.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Now you are talking for all humans. Do as you do. But I am not you. Sorry, but you are doing a "we", that is not there in the everyday world.

It was not meant as a "we" statement.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It was not meant as a "we" statement.

Then only speak for you. The game changes for you as you as for how you copre versus how 2 or more humans cope in the everyday world.
Yeah, I like you. But I still debate you if I have to. And no, you are not wrong. You just do it differently than me in some cases. That is all.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Then only speak for you. The game changes for you as you as for how you copre versus how 2 or more humans cope in the everyday world.
Yeah, I like you. But I still debate you if I have to. And no, you are not wrong. You just do it differently than me in some cases. That is all.

I don't try to stop others from having an opinion about difficult topics
And sexual topics are difficult to discuss because they are so personal.

I living in a hetrosexual relationship with out sex. Because non of us wish to have children, and she is allergic to latex.