Homosexuality and religious.

[ADigitalArtist]

Sure, but please don't group the Torah with the others. Thank you,

What? People grossly misinterpreting the Torah in order to warp it to fit within the lens of their religion? That *never* happens.

 

[CG Didymus]

I appreciate your views and that you wish no harm to anyone which is a noble and humane sentiment. But also that it is fruitless to continue debating this issue because we both have diametrically opposing views that we are both standing by.

So, how does this get resolved? Is truth one or is it anything we want to make it? Is the belief that homosexuality is wrong objective truth or subjective truth. Some religious people are moving it out of being "objective" truth to it being subjective. The only way religious people can even claim it is objective truth is because they believe the law came from God. Trouble is... they can't objectively prove God.

 

[Vinayaka]

And "strong" evidence seems to be the Scriptures of that religion. But then again, ironically, Baha'is say it is wrong for the other religions to take their Scriptures too literally, but it's necessary to take Baha'u'llah's writings as literal as possible. Which is why we're in this mess we're in with their beliefs about gays.

No irony there.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, especially the 1260 day prophecies. Those work out perfect for Baha'is, because you start them with the Hegira, and they all come out to the year 1844. My problem with those is that it is six different things that didn't begin nor end at the same time, yet Baha'is have them all start and stop at the same time. Like one of them the two witnesses, Baha'is say that is Muhammad and Ali, prophesied for the 1260 lunar years. But then after the two witnesses prophesy for the 1260 lunar years, they are killed, and their bodies are in the street for 1260 lunar years? Both starting with the Hejira and ending in 1844? And how does that make any sense?

Hijri Gregorian Converter by IslamiCity.org - Most Beautiful Hijri Converter on the Web - IslamiCity

You can type in 1260 in the calendar converter.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So, how does this get resolved? Is truth one or is it anything we want to make it? Is the belief that homosexuality is wrong objective truth or subjective truth. Some religious people are moving it out of being "objective" truth to it being subjective. The only way religious people can even claim it is objective truth is because they believe the law came from God. Trouble is... they can't objectively prove God.

It depends what you mean by objective. God can not be materially objectively proven because God is not physical. But by objectively studying the Lives and Holy Books and prophecies we can come to a spiritually objective conclusion. Because the proof and facts that God exists is not to be found in mathematical formula but in the Words of God, the Lives of the Manifestations and the prophecies.

 

[CG Didymus]

All through history from the Torah to the New Testament, Quran and now Baha’u’llah, God has been consistent about homosexuality. It is for each individual to decide whether to follow God or society on any matter.

Who wrote the Torah and the New Testament? God or man? But let's pretend it was God. Here's a couple of verses...

Leviticus 20:13 ESV
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Why has God changed his mind on what he thinks about homosexuals and how they are to be punished? He used to really hate them.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Who wrote the Torah and the New Testament? God or man? But let's pretend it was God. Here's a couple of verses...

Leviticus 20:13 ESV
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Why has God changed his mind on what he thinks about homosexuals and how they are to be punished? He used to really hate them.

God don't hate humans,only what is seen as sin.
It is sinfull action, words and thoughts that God do not like.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible is a ‘spiritual Book’ speaking about spiritual matters not this material world. So many happenings have deep spiritual meanings such as the days of creation, Adam and Eve and the Resurrection. To believe Christ had the power of the Holy Spirit and could breathe new spiritual life into the world is true. Born again is not returning to one’s mothers’s womb to be physically born again. So things like this in the Gospels need to be looked at with spiritual eyes and understood spiritually.

Christ, speaking to Nicodemus explained that rebirth was of the spirit not the body, an illusion to His own resurrection which too was spiritual and not of the body. Christ rejected the concept of bodily resurrection or rebirth when He spoke to Nicodemus. That is abundantly clear.


4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

So, nowhere in the NT does it make it sound as if Jesus was dead and came back to life?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Wrong type of maths.

Gather all the Biblical Prophecies.

Then put a probability factor against each Prophecy, depending on what it offers.

Then go about estimating the probale amount of persons that could apply to that Prophecy and calculate away.

Some have already done this by the way, books written on it.

This would be a good one

Isaiah 54:5
For your Maker is your husband,
The Lord of hosts is His name;
And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel;
He is called fthe God of the whole earth

So how many people have given/claimed a message from God - Estimate?

How many were married - Calculate?

How many had the Lord of Hosts as a name, or was attributed to them - Calculate?

How many came to redeem Israel - Calculate?

How many gave a global Message and offered that the redemption of earth was the goal - Calculate?

My guess that the probability factor on this one runs into about 3 people. Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah. Jesus can not be included as he never had a wife.

There may be other claiments that can fit, but then that is only Prophecy One! We have hundreds we can then use.

Regards Tony

I am sorry, but this is really quite silly as an argument for the "truth" of claimants speaking for God. I've little doubt you'd give a child of yours scant credit making such an argument for what happened to front of the car last night...

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha’i teachings say that only God knows what’s best for us and He reveals that guidance through His Manifestations. Is the world currently better or worse for having so far rejected His call to unite? We have civil wars arising all over the planet unable to stop them. Same with His other laws and counsels.

His "call" to unity has some strings attached... The acceptance of hm being a manifestation of God and that all his laws and writings are the infallible word of God.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Ok. Firstly I i don’t only believe Baha’u’llah spoke for God but also Moses, Jesus, Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab and recently Baha’u’llah. So at different times God sent His Teachers with guidance if we wanted it for our age. This age we need to all work together so God sent Baha’u’llah with teachings on how to create a world community and world civilisation where we can all enjoy lives of comfort and all get along.

Next your situation, it is very praiseworthy to assist and help those who are ill. I used to do nursing myself and loved helping those who were suffering. So that is a commendable thing to do. And God I believe loves all believer or not.

About your private life and God? That’s really your business. God praises loving one another, caring for the sick so there is everything to be pleased about. I personally believe God would commend you for being so humane towards your partner. I think harsh judgement would be reserved for people like religious leaders, those who commit genocide and those like Hitler but not people who just choose to live a different lifestyle.

Think about it. What sort of God would God be if on the one hand He deliberately gave us free will and yet on the other threatened us if we didn’t listen to Him He would cast us in fire? So I think God looks at the good we do not anything else unless we are doing really nasty things. But like a loving parent He may use strong words to tell us behaviours or acts He wants us to avoid but then even if we don’t God loves us anyway because His love is unconditional.

So my belief is God praises all the good you do and will never punish you for not choosing to follow Him because He gave us all freedom of choice. Only as a Father He tells us what He thinks is best for us but we are not condemned if we choose differently.

God judges each soul on its own merits. The Guardian cannot tell you what the attitude of God would be towards a person who lives a good life in most ways, but not in this way.(Shoghi Effendi)

I suggest you re-read you whole post very carefully -- and see if it doesn't say that God would do what your religion refuses to do. You say, "God wouldn't punish...for not choosing to follow Him," but you also say that your religion does. Remember, exclusion is a form of censure.

 

[CG Didymus]

Wrong type of maths.

Gather all the Biblical Prophecies.

Then put a probability factor against each Prophecy, depending on what it offers.

Then go about estimating the probale amount of persons that could apply to that Prophecy and calculate away.

Some have already done this by the way, books written on it.

This would be a good one

Isaiah 54:5
For your Maker is your husband,
The Lord of hosts is His name;
And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel;
He is called fthe God of the whole earth

So how many people have given/claimed a message from God - Estimate?

How many were married - Calculate?

How many had the Lord of Hosts as a name, or was attributed to them - Calculate?

How many came to redeem Israel - Calculate?

How many gave a global Message and offered that the redemption of earth was the goal - Calculate?

My guess that the probability factor on this one runs into about 3 people. Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah. Jesus can not be included as he never had a wife.

There may be other claiments that can fit, but then that is only Prophecy One! We have hundreds we can then use.

Regards Tony

And why is that the correct interpretation of Isaiah 54:5?

Then this? "Gather all the Biblical Prophecies"? The Jewish list is going to be different than the Christian list and the Baha'i list is going to different to both the Jewish and Christian list. Going by the Jewish list neither Jesus nor Baha'u'llah is their Messiah. Going by the Christian list Jesus is the Messiah and he's coming back. The Baha'i list has Baha'u'llah being the Jewish Messiah, the Return of Christ, and everybody else. What's the probability that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the prophecies of all the religions? A 100% when the math and interpretations and choosing what is a prophecy and what is not is done by the Baha'is.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Those who doubt or disbelieve are not open to the truth the same way.

Actually, you can't find the truth without skepticism (doubt), but then what you call truth is not what I call truth. To you, truth is whatever the people you trust say is truth.

And isn't that what is happening with the Baha'i Faith? They start with God is real and Baha'u'llah is his messenger/manifestation, therefore anything he says is the infallible truth from God. Then, the other question that comes up is how do they prove or know God is real? And Baha'u'llah and other manifestations are given as proof that God is real. And then they say they know that Baha'u'llah is real because of his character, his mission and his writings. It makes sense to Baha'is, but to who else?

Yes, arguments that arrive at sound conclusions require true premises. No argument that assumes the existence of gods can be sound, since their existence has never been established. Arguments about what is true in the world based in scripture can't be sound either, since nothing written in any holy book is known to be true because it appears there. If it's true, we know so empirically - by consulting nature (introducing evidence).

I appreciate your views and that you wish no harm to anyone which is a noble and humane sentiment. But also that it is fruitless to continue debating this issue because we both have diametrically opposing views that we are both standing by.

How about you? Empathy is a noble and humane sentiment. You have none for this man. I can't help but believe that as a humanist, you'd have more empathy in this area. There have been about a half dozen active non-Baha'i posters on this thread condemning the Baha'i doctrine on homosexuality, although no longer. None of them lacked empathy for gay people. And not one Baha'i - another half dozen or so, although once again, no longer - has expressed any such compassion. It's always, this is what we are taught and therefore it is what we believe, and nothing more. Sorry, but it's quite off-putting.

I believe unlike yourself that only God knows what is good or not good for us and that while you consider it opposed to love, it is an act of love by God to tell us when we are going astray.

You seem to believe that accepting that doctrine absolves you of moral responsibility for accepting it. It doesn't. You chose to be Baha'i, and so you are morally responsible for all that entails for you, just as I am morally responsible for the moral code I choose.

And homophobia is not an act of love, even if it does come from a deity. It just makes it a homophobic deity, not a loving or moral one.

What a terrible way to decide right from wrong - divine command theory. Look at why you believe that homosexuals are immoral. Because a book says so, and somebody convinced you that a good god wrote that book - end of thinking.

 

[CG Didymus]

Since when does 'making sense' come into the picture?

Good point.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hijri Gregorian Converter by IslamiCity.org - Most Beautiful Hijri Converter on the Web - IslamiCity

You can type in 1260 in the calendar converter.

I said 1260 days or things that can be made to equal 1260 days are mentioned I believe 6 times or so. Baha'is take those days and make the lunar years. The year 1260 on the Islamic calendar is the year1844. That's not the major problem with what Baha'is do with it.

Rev 11:1 “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”​

Already there's two times. The Gentiles will trample the Holy city for 42 months, which gets converted by Baha'is to 1260 lunar years. Then the two witnesses, supposedly Muhammad and Ali, will prophesy for those same 1260 days changed to years.

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city... 9 For three and a half days... 11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet...
​

Now after they had finished their 1260 day/years of prophesying, they are killed and lie in the street for 3 1/2 days, which is converted to 1260 lunar years. For Baha'is, each one of these things starts in the year of the Hejira and ends 1260 lunar later, which is the year 1844. The year the Bab declared. But there's more...

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman... 2 She was pregnant and... about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads... The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
​

This also starts with the Hejira and ends in 1844. Then this...

Rev 13:1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea... The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed... 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast... 5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.
​

This beast had authority for 42 months which gets converted to 1260 lunar years and this also starts with the Hejira and ends in 1844. All these events Baha'is have interpreted to be about specific people. None of them started with the Hejira in 622AD and ended in 1844. But that's how the Baha'is interpreted them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And why is that the correct interpretation of Isaiah 54:5?

Then this? "Gather all the Biblical Prophecies"? The Jewish list is going to be different than the Christian list and the Baha'i list is going to different to both the Jewish and Christian list. Going by the Jewish list neither Jesus nor Baha'u'llah is their Messiah. Going by the Christian list Jesus is the Messiah and he's coming back. The Baha'i list has Baha'u'llah being the Jewish Messiah, the Return of Christ, and everybody else. What's the probability that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the prophecies of all the religions? A 100% when the math and interpretations and choosing what is a prophecy and what is not is done by the Baha'is.

Up to you CG.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

This would be a good one

Isaiah 54:5
For your Maker is your husband,
The Lord of hosts is His name;
And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel;
He is called fthe God of the whole earth

Hmmmm

So how many people have given/claimed a message from God - Estimate?

Irrelevent. This verse, and the surrounding verses, have nothing to do messages or prophecy from God. Context mismatch.

How many were married - Calculate?

Meh. A weak correlation. The Hebrew word translated as husband, can also be translated as "master" making Baha'u'llah's marriage status irrelevent.

How many had the Lord of Hosts as a name, or was attributed to them - Calculate?

Another meh. He could have been given the name specifically for the purpose of claiming prophecy. No divine intervention required, no divine prophecy fulfilled.

How many came to redeem Israel - Calculate?

The Holy One of Israel is God. Attributing it to someone else is a choice, not very convincing.

How many gave a global Message and offered that the redemption of earth was the goal - Calculate?

Thats not what the verse says. It says "He is called the God of the whole earth". Nothing about global messages.

So, ignoring that the verse isn't a prophecy about the Messiah, you've got:

• 1 weak correlation based on the word which may be translated as husband
• 1 weak correlation based on a name that Baha'u'llah was given

That's it. 2 out of 4 elements is 50% of the verse might be talking about Baha'u'llah.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hmmmm


Irrelevent. This verse, and the surrounding verses, have nothing to do messages or prophecy from God. Context mismatch.

Meh. A weak correlation. The Hebrew word translated as husband, can also be translated as "master" making Baha'u'llah's marriage status irrelevent.

Another meh. He could have been given the name specifically for the purpose of claiming prophecy. No divine intervention required, no divine prophecy fulfilled.

The Holy One of Israel is God. Attributing it to someone else is a choice, not very convincing.

Thats not what the verse says. It says "He is called the God of the whole earth". Nothing about global messages.

So, ignoring that the verse isn't a prophecy about the Messiah, you've got:

• 1 weak correlation based on the word which may be translated as husband
• 1 weak correlation based on a name that Baha'u'llah was given

That's it. 2 out of 4 elements is 50% of the verse might be talking about Baha'u'llah.

This is the first time I've heard a Baha'i use this verse. My first question would be what is the context? Why is this one verse a prophecy about Baha'u'llah? I'm sure you use a different translation. But just by changing from KJV to NIV already changes "Lord of hosts" to "Lord Almighty".

“Sing, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
burst into song, shout for joy,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband,”
says the Lord.
2 “Enlarge the place of your tent,
stretch your tent curtains wide,
do not hold back;
lengthen your cords,
strengthen your stakes.
3 For you will spread out to the right and to the left;
your descendants will dispossess nations
and settle in their desolate cities.

4 “Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame.
Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.
You will forget the shame of your youth
and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.
5 For your Maker is your husband—
the Lord Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
he is called the God of all the earth.
6 The Lord will call you back
as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
only to be rejected,” says your God.
7 “For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
8 In a surge of anger
I hid my face from you for a moment,
but with everlasting kindness
I will have compassion on you,”
says the Lord your Redeemer.
​

 

[dybmh]

But just by changing from KJV to NIV already changes "Lord of hosts" to "Lord Almighty".

Lord of Hosts is a literal direct translation.

My first question would be what is the context?

Most of the later chapters of Isaiah are talking about God's retribution against those who have turned away, and God's commitment to the Jewish people due to the faith of the righteous remnant.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmmmm


Irrelevent. This verse, and the surrounding verses, have nothing to do messages or prophecy from God. Context mismatch.

Meh. A weak correlation. The Hebrew word translated as husband, can also be translated as "master" making Baha'u'llah's marriage status irrelevent.

Another meh. He could have been given the name specifically for the purpose of claiming prophecy. No divine intervention required, no divine prophecy fulfilled.

The Holy One of Israel is God. Attributing it to someone else is a choice, not very convincing.

Thats not what the verse says. It says "He is called the God of the whole earth". Nothing about global messages.

So, ignoring that the verse isn't a prophecy about the Messiah, you've got:

• 1 weak correlation based on the word which may be translated as husband
• 1 weak correlation based on a name that Baha'u'llah was given

That's it. 2 out of 4 elements is 50% of the verse might be talking about Baha'u'llah.

So you have some maths to start with. It is a start.

For it to work, it requires the input of more than two opinions.

No one has seen God, so there is much room to see that the passages refer to those that show us God.

Regards Tony