Homosexuality and religious.

[F1fan]

It depends what you mean by objective. God can not be materially objectively proven because God is not physical.

So mortals like us can't discern a real God from the imaginary.

But by objectively studying the Lives and Holy Books and prophecies we can come to a spiritually objective conclusion.

No it doesn't, because much of these stories rely on assumptions that a God exists and has powers to interact with some people, and this isn't verifiable. Your claims here are faith, not reason.

Because the proof and facts that God exists is not to be found in mathematical formula but in the Words of God, the Lives of the Manifestations and the prophecies.

There is no proof that any God exists, as above you admitted it isn't material. You can't have it both ways. So no, God is not a fact. You are making more false claims.

 

[F1fan]

So you have some maths to start with. It is a start.

For it to work, it requires the input of more than two opinions.

No one has seen God, so there is much room to see that the passages refer to those that show us God.

So how can you guys assert it's real? You all make all sorts of claims that are inconsistent. One guy says God is a fact, you say no one has seen God, God is immaterial, etc.

I suspect you guys know this God is likely not what you want it to be: existing outside of your imagination.

 

[dybmh]

No one has seen God, so there is much room to see that the passages refer to those that show us God.

• verse 1 - the nation of israel is compared to a barren woman
• verse 2 - the nation's borders are compared to a tent, the borders are to be enlarged, divine decree
• verse 3 - the nation will dislodge other nations and settle in their cities
• verse 4 - the nation is compared to a widow with a shameful past, but the past has been forgiven BECAUSE ...
• verse 5 - your Maker is your husband ( the nation is the bride of God ), the Lord of Hosts is his name ( Names of God in Judaism - Wikipedia ), the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer ( still talking about God ), he is called the God of all the earth ( still talking about God ).
• verse 6 - ( still talking about God ) "The Lord will call you back ..."
• verse 7 - ( God is now speaking ) "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back."
• verse 8 - ( God is still speaking ) "In a surge of anger I (God) hid my face (God's face) from you (the nation) for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I (God) will have compassion on you (the nation)”
  says the Lord your Redeemer <-- GOD.

You said: "there is much room to see that the passages refer to those that show us God". Where? Where in those 8 verses is there any room to refer to messengers? Kindly direct me to the "passages" you're talking about?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Who wrote the Torah and the New Testament? God or man? But let's pretend it was God. Here's a couple of verses...

Leviticus 20:13 ESV
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Why has God changed his mind on what he thinks about homosexuals and how they are to be punished? He used to really hate them.

The first passage Leviticus doesn’t state whether the persons changed or not but just that they committed the sin. I don’t know if they had changed would the penalty still remain.

The next passage Corinthians includes that the people changed their ways i e. transformed, become holy and believed. So we know that God forgives. Then it is possible always that God will forgive us if we try and change our ways.

These Baha’i writings passages are what Baha’is believe about the Torah.


the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).
(From a previously untranslated Tablet) (Baha’u’llah)

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, and in that which He was commanded to do.... The glorious Book, the Mighty Decree, is what was in the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and that which He proclaimed unto the Children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

I believe religion is progressive so laws that may be required for one age may be replaced by God in a different time and circumstance. Laws were harsh in past times especially in a desert environment where there were no rehabilitation centres, courts, police, lawyers or judges. So in order to be effective deterrents punishments were severe. So things like adultery were stoning to death and for theft the cutting off of hands in other religions. But as humanity acquired facilities and the infrastructure to deal with crime more humanely, God revealed laws focusing more on education and the love of God than striking fear into hearts. So Baha’u’llah today says ‘Obey My commandments for the love of My Beauty’.

The laws of God have been adjusted over the ages according to our spiritual progress and development.

So many Baha’is want to obey Baha’u’llah out of love not fear or duty or because of punishment.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So, nowhere in the NT does it make it sound as if Jesus was dead and came back to life?

The Spirit Jesus was not killed only His Body. It was the Spirit of Christ which lived on in the hearts and minds even till today not His Body. What was resurrected was belief that He was from God because once the disciples saw that He died and suffered in pain like any person, they began to doubt His Divinity.

However, Mary Magdalene due to her steadfastness revived the Faith of the disciples and in three days they regained their conviction in Christ’s Divinity and in dreams and visions.

During the Christian dispensation the apostles became agitated after the Crucifixion of Jesus; even Peter denied Him thrice, but Mary Magdalene became the cause of their becoming firm and steadfast. (Abdul-Baha)

 

[loverofhumanity]

His "call" to unity has some strings attached... The acceptance of hm being a manifestation of God and that all his laws and writings are the infallible word of God.

Not at all. His call is for humanity to recognise its oneness and ensure that all live in comfort, that none go in need.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I suggest you re-read you whole post very carefully -- and see if it doesn't say that God would do what your religion refuses to do. You say, "God wouldn't punish...for not choosing to follow Him," but you also say that your religion does. Remember, exclusion is a form of censure.

Every society has rules and laws to protect itself. The Baha’i society is no different.

On this earth we are bound by laws but when we pass on then it is up to God how our lives are judged and it’s my personal opinion that God looks at the good things we’ve done. I was speaking about how God will judge us after we die.

But in this life society must be based on reward and punishment to maintain law and order.

 

[F1fan]

Not at all. His call is for humanity to recognise its oneness and ensure that all live in comfort, that none go in need.

His call is to condemn gays, which is morally unacceptable.

It's odd you present a nice view of the religion claiming oneness, except ignore the group that is shunned for being who they are.

 

[F1fan]

Every society has rules and laws to protect itself. The Baha’i society is no different.

What does the law against gays protect Bahais from?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Actually, you can't find the truth without skepticism (doubt), but then what you call truth is not what I call truth. To you, truth is whatever the people you trust say is truth.



Yes, arguments that arrive at sound conclusions require true premises. No argument that assumes the existence of gods can be sound, since their existence has never been established. Arguments about what is true in the world based in scripture can't be sound either, since nothing written in any holy book is known to be true because it appears there. If it's true, we know so empirically - by consulting nature (introducing evidence).



How about you? Empathy is a noble and humane sentiment. You have none for this man. I can't help but believe that as a humanist, you'd have more empathy in this area. There have been about a half dozen active non-Baha'i posters on this thread condemning the Baha'i doctrine on homosexuality, although no longer. None of them lacked empathy for gay people. And not one Baha'i - another half dozen or so, although once again, no longer - has expressed any such compassion. It's always, this is what we are taught and therefore it is what we believe, and nothing more. Sorry, but it's quite off-putting.



You seem to believe that accepting that doctrine absolves you of moral responsibility for accepting it. It doesn't. You chose to be Baha'i, and so you are morally responsible for all that entails for you, just as I am morally responsible for the moral code I choose.

And homophobia is not an act of love, even if it does come from a deity. It just makes it a homophobic deity, not a loving or moral one.

What a terrible way to decide right from wrong - divine command theory. Look at why you believe that homosexuals are immoral. Because a book says so, and somebody convinced you that a good god wrote that book - end of thinking.

I reject any and all accusations of homophobia because I treat everyone with dignity and humanely. You’re free to believe what you like based on what you’re error prone human mind tells you. I find it illogical that you believe in your human error prone mind as if it were a God. In reality, you’re doing exactly what you are accusing me of except I’m not trusting my error prone mind like you Instead I am referring to Baha’u’llah because I believe He is the Voice of God and God can judge as He is infallible.

No one is really in a position to judge another because you do not know them well enough to judge anyone but ourselves.

My judgement i openly admit is human and faulty. I make terrible mistakes. That’s why I follow God because He does not make mistakes and He is always right. But I can’t judge you because I’m not infallible nor God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

His call is to condemn gays, which is morally unacceptable.

It's odd you present a nice view of the religion claiming oneness, except ignore the group that is shunned for being who they are.

Thats not true.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What does the law against gays protect Bahais from?

Immorality.

 

[dybmh]

I reject any and all accusations of homophobia because I treat everyone with dignity and humanely.

Maybe you do in real life, but, everytime you claim "immorality" it undermines your good intentions. In real life would you tell a gay person their behavior was immoral to their face? Can we agree that would be rude?

 

[Truthseeker]

If an idea is true or correct, it can be used in the real world to generate predictable consequences, and different ones if that idea turned out to be false.

I'll conclude the discussion by agreeing with that. Other than that, we part our ways.

 

[danieldemol]

Im unaware of any scientific paper although that doesn’t mean there aren’t classified ones as something like this could destabilise the world economy. So I don’t think even if it is known to a few whether they would let on.

The comment on nuclear power by Baha’u’llah did end up being verified as we all now know and agree on its danger to be able to destroy the entire world. The thing is, how did Baha’u’llah know that? So let’s see if time will have anything to say about the copper to gold statement. It may be discovered or it’s discovery revealed at a later date.

what comment on nuclear power?
Baha'u'llah said that there is a force that can destroy the world, he could have got that from considering the force that sets the sun ablaze, or it could have been a guess, after all even a broken clock is right twice a day.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

• verse 1 - the nation of israel is compared to a barren woman
• verse 2 - the nation's borders are compared to a tent, the borders are to be enlarged, divine decree
• verse 3 - the nation will dislodge other nations and settle in their cities
• verse 4 - the nation is compared to a widow with a shameful past, but the past has been forgiven BECAUSE ...
• verse 5 - your Maker is your husband ( the nation is the bride of God ), the Lord of Hosts is his name ( Names of God in Judaism - Wikipedia ), the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer ( still talking about God ), he is called the God of all the earth ( still talking about God ).
• verse 6 - ( still talking about God ) "The Lord will call you back ..."
• verse 7 - ( God is now speaking ) "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back."
• verse 8 - ( God is still speaking ) "In a surge of anger I (God) hid my face (God's face) from you (the nation) for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I (God) will have compassion on you (the nation)”
  says the Lord your Redeemer <-- GOD.

You said: "there is much room to see that the passages refer to those that show us God". Where? Where in those 8 verses is there any room to refer to messengers? Kindly direct me to the "passages" you're talking about?

I can give some thoughts, happy to.

• verse 1 - the nation of israel is compared to a barren woman

To me this is saying that the potential of the Jewish Nation to lead the world in spiritual matters, is yet to be realised.

• verse 2 - the nation's borders are compared to a tent, the borders are to be enlarged, divine decree

This is saying to me that the tent of the faith of God according to some in centred in Israel, the borders have been expanded to include the entire earth.

• verse 3 - the nation will dislodge other nations and settle in their cities

That says to me that we will realise that God's Message is global, for all peoples and all Nations, that God's Message will change the hearts of people's with what they currently see as conflicting faiths, the law does go out from Zion.

• verse 4 - the nation is compared to a widow with a shameful past, but the past has been forgiven BECAUSE ...

I see this as saying the promise has been fulfilled, that the Jews are now living that promise, they have been returned to the Holy Land.

• verse 5 - your Maker is your husband ( the nation is the bride of God ), the Lord of Hosts is his name ( Names of God in Judaism - Wikipedia ), the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer ( still talking about God ), he is called the God of all the earth ( still talking about God ).

This I see is how the promise was fulfilled, forget the old interpretations, I see this is all things made new. Baha'u'llah has explained this in detail, I need not repeat all that.

• verse 6 - ( still talking about God ) "The Lord will call you back ..."

That is indeed what Baha'u'llah did do, very openly and to all the nations and all the peoples of the earth.

• verse 7 - ( God is now speaking ) "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with deep compassion I will bring you back."

The call started in 1844, there short time of abandonment are still living in, the importance of this Message is yet to be grasped, but read what Baha'u'llah promises about Isreal.

• verse 8 - ( God is still speaking ) "In a surge of anger I (God) hid my face (God's face) from you (the nation) for a moment, but with everlasting kindness I (God) will have compassion on you (the nation)”says the Lord your Redeemer <-- GOD.

The earth currently unfolds in that anger, it is OK you insert God into those scripultures as Baha'u'llah has explained how the Messenger is the Self of God amongst us. The Message is still hidden from most of the world, but the promise will be fulfilled. I can go into great detail, but will leave it there.

As you can see, my poor effort at an explanation is as viable as any other ever given, but at the same time, does not exclude Baha'u'llah, yet we can now ask, who else could fulfil those verses? Who else has a Global Message that due to circumstances, ended up being given from and now resides in Israel?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So how can you guys assert it's real? You all make all sorts of claims that are inconsistent. One guy says God is a fact, you say no one has seen God, God is immaterial, etc.

I suspect you guys know this God is likely not what you want it to be: existing outside of your imagination.

One only has to read what Baha'u'llah offered for themselves.

The concept is not hard to grasp. Gid does not decend into creation. God sends a Messenger who appears in the human body, the Spirit that emanated from those Meseengers are all we know about God, so to see them as God is not wrong and to see them as a Messenger is also not wrong.

"Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person." Bahá’u’lláh

Regards Tony

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

One only has to read what Baha'u'llah offered for themselves.

The concept is not hard to grasp. Gid does not decend into creation. God sends a Messenger who appears in the human body, the Spirit that emanated from those Meseengers are all we know about God, so to see them as God is not wrong and to see them as a Messenger is also not wrong.

"Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person." Bahá’u’lláh

Regards Tony

I still read different books than you and view the concept of Messengers differently.

 

[joelr]

CG - I just read this, it is not that long. It really answer all the issues. It was guidance for American Baha'i, but is applicable for all Baha'i.

The Baha’i Teachings and Homosexuality

Regards Tony

This is literally verbatim copy of the Islamic view. Don't argue, allow others to do what they want but the ultimate law given by god is no gay sex. So to act as a proper Bahai you should ignore your sexual feelings and consider it a challenge from Allah, I mean God and act like you are straight.

This isn't written by a God any more than Islam is.

Some Answered Questions is attempting to argue man didn't evolve from animals. It's simply wrong.
It uses as an analogy a time when the sun wasn't yet in the local solar system. It says since this cannot be imagined this "proves" man isn't an animal.

Yeah that's all wrong and the sun wasn't in the solar system once. It was made in a local nebula, ejected and gravitationally swung into it's current location. This is man-made, poor philosophy. Not writings and information from a God.

"
So if we were to imagine a time when man belonged to the animal kingdom, that is, when he was merely an animal, existence would have been imperfect. This means that there would have been no man, and this chief member, which in the body of the world is like the mind and the brain in a human being, would have been lacking, and the world would thus have been utterly imperfect. This is sufficient proof in itself that if there had been a time when man belonged to the animal realm, the completeness of existence would have been destroyed; for man is the chief member of the body of this world, and a body without its chief member is undoubtedly imperfect. We regard man as the chief member because, among all created things, he encompasses all the perfections of existence.

5Now, what we mean by “man” is the complete human being, the foremost person in the world, who is the sum of all spiritual and material perfections, and who is like the sun among all created things. Imagine, then, a time when the sun did not exist as such, in other words, when the sun was merely another celestial body. Undoubtedly, at such a time the relationships between existing things would have been disrupted. How can such a thing be imagined? Were one to carefully examine the world of existence, this argument alone would suffice.
"

 

[loverofhumanity]

Maybe you do in real life, but, everytime you claim "immorality" it undermines your good intentions. In real life would you tell a gay person their behavior was immoral to their face? Can we agree that would be rude?

Only if they asked my beliefs. But it’s not for me to judge anyone but myself.