Homosexuality and religious.

[mikkel_the_dane]

You are correct, who really knows, well nit me anyway but there is a lot offered for us to consider.

I see we do meet in our next existence, hell is only our state of mind. I see there are no barriers to unity when we wake from the death we all face, what we share now in virtues, I see we always share as a human, on this journey to discover our own selves.

Regards Tony

Yeah, you are a special one, because you can't err about God, only other people can do that.

 

[dybmh]

I personally see that All of what God offers is eternal, for all creation, for every world of God and every creature in all those worlds.

1) Context matters. The Tanach was written "to the Jewish people". Claims that rely on adjusting this become weak or far-fetched or a stretch. Choosing to do this repeatedly will skew quality of the conclusions.
2) Per your own words Leviticus is not eternal. Clergy and ritual are abolished as changable law, remember?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If this were true, Baha'u'llah would have known the future objections to his message from the world's major religions and refutted them in advance. For example, he could have given proof that he shares a spirit with the other, so-called, manifestations. Instead, the message is divisive, not unifying. The methods employed do not reflect the Self of God. The Self of God would know more and be more effective at bringing unity.

That Message has been given.

As always, it depends upon our reaction to it, just as in the day of every Prophet, the choice becomes our own.

This day of worldwide rejection is indeed foretold, and that time would include many wolds convulsions culminating in a 3rd world conflict, which will bring the hour of great change upon us all, Baha'i included.

Shoghi Effendi warned us to disperse to all Nations and remote from cities for our own protection, but at the same time a wisdom of expansion, making the faith global as lightening flashes from the East to the West.

I can only offer you all the best in life and faith, not much else I can offer, if ones aim is to reject what Baha'u'llah offered.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, you are a special one, because you can't err about God, only other people can do that.

How you git that from what I offered?

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

1) Context matters. The Tanach was written "to the Jewish people". Claims that rely on adjusting this become weak or far-fetched or a stretch. Choosing to do this repeatedly will skew quality of the conclusions.
2) Per your own words Leviticus is not eternal. Clergy and ritual are abolished as changable law, remember?

I will not offer more. I wish you all the best.

Regards Tony

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

How you git that from what I offered?

All the best, Regards Tony

Well, you know what is right or rather your belief can't be wrong, but mine can be wrong. So you can't err, because your belief can't be wrong.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, you know what is right or rather your belief can't be wrong, but mine can be wrong. So you can't err, because your belief can't be wrong.

I said we can share the virtues in this life, no matter our beleif.

Regards Tony

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I said we can share the virtues in this life, no matter our beleif.

Regards Tony

But I was addressing the part after this life.

 

[dybmh]

I can only offer you all the best in life and faith, not much else I can offer, if ones aim is to reject what Baha'u'llah offered.

Baha'u'llah claims that a nessessary element for a peaceful and harmonious life is "each person must set aside superstitious beliefs, traditions and blind imitation of ancestral forms of religion"

The Baha'i Peace Plan

So yes, the offer is rejected per Deuteronomy 13:

Verse 4: "You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him."
Verse 18: "For you shall hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep all His commandments which I command you this day, to do that which is proper in the eyes of the Lord, your God."
​

Then there's King David's method: Psalms 119. 176 verses all expressing devotion to the law of Moses. Specifically verse 44:

"44And I shall keep Your Torah constantly, forever and ever.​

 

[F1fan]

We do not have to, as it is evidently the truth.

No it isn't. If it was so evident then critical thinkes would agree with you. As it is it's only some absurd idea you believers have adopted, and can't defend with any evidence. Critical thinkers reject this idea due to there being no evidence.

That was you choice, which you are not able to project on to any follower of Baha'u'llah, or any Messenger when it comes down to the crunch.

Crunch? What crunch?. What your statement here suggests is that you Bahai live in some fear, and this fear is motivating what you decide to believe. Critical thinkers are very deliberate and careful in considering ideas. No ideas get special treatment. Our judgments do not get manipulated with threats or promises.

Just as I am not able to change any person's heart in these matters.

Right, you can't influence rational and moral people to prejudice against gays.

The advantage of not being a believer in some ideology is the freedom to be moral.

 

[F1fan]

That Message has been given.

As always, it depends upon our reaction to it, just as in the day of every Prophet, the choice becomes our own.

This day of worldwide rejection is indeed foretold, and that time would include many wolds convulsions culminating in a 3rd world conflict, which will bring the hour of great change upon us all, Baha'i included.

Shoghi Effendi warned us to disperse to all Nations and remote from cities for our own protection, but at the same time a wisdom of expansion, making the faith global as lightening flashes from the East to the West.

I can only offer you all the best in life and faith, not much else I can offer, if ones aim is to reject what Baha'u'llah offered.

Regards Tony

That's the thing I don't understand, if Bahai are convinced that Baha'u'llah is the true zmessnegr from God, and what he wrote is absolute, no question, then how can anyone reject it? These laws are either absolute or they aren't. If mortals like me can reject Bahai laws then they aren't absolute. U=You seem to admit that we mortals can reject or accept these laws, and that means they are subjective, not absolute. That means they have no authority or ower or consequence for rejecting them.

So shouldn't Bahai treat naysayers with contempt as well as gays?

 

[CG Didymus]

Lord of Hosts is a literal direct translation.

Most of the later chapters of Isaiah are talking about God's retribution against those who have turned away, and God's commitment to the Jewish people due to the faith of the righteous remnant.

Okay, so then I wonder who called Baha'u'llah "Lord of Hosts"? And because they did, not only everytime the Bible says "Glory of God" it is a reference to Baha'u'llah, but every time it says "Lord of Hosts" also. Plus, how many "names" of God are there. Baha'is, I'm sure, will say that they all refer to Baha'u'llah. But, to the Jew, aren't those names about God and not the Messiah?

So, if the context is about the retribution and commitment, would a prophecy be thrown into one verse within that context? Or is it just an example of a religion cherry picking the Bible?

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe religion is progressive so laws that may be required for one age may be replaced by God in a different time and circumstance. Laws were harsh in past times especially in a desert environment where there were no rehabilitation centres, courts, police, lawyers or judges. So in order to be effective deterrents punishments were severe. So things like adultery were stoning to death and for theft the cutting off of hands in other religions. But as humanity acquired facilities and the infrastructure to deal with crime more humanely, God revealed laws focusing more on education and the love of God than striking fear into hearts. So Baha’u’llah today says ‘Obey My commandments for the love of My Beauty’.

You keep saying that the laws had to be harsh as if they were nomads in the desert. The Bible story has them wandering in the desert for 40 years, then they took the Land of Canaan and lived in cities and villages.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Spirit Jesus was not killed only His Body. It was the Spirit of Christ which lived on in the hearts and minds even till today not His Body. What was resurrected was belief that He was from God because once the disciples saw that He died and suffered in pain like any person, they began to doubt His Divinity.

However, Mary Magdalene due to her steadfastness revived the Faith of the disciples and in three days they regained their conviction in Christ’s Divinity and in dreams and visions.

During the Christian dispensation the apostles became agitated after the Crucifixion of Jesus; even Peter denied Him thrice, but Mary Magdalene became the cause of their becoming firm and steadfast. (Abdul-Baha)

The question was... Where in the NT does it make it sound as if the resurrection wasn't a real physical resurrection? Let me tell you where it does. He was touched and said that he had flesh and bone. And in Acts it says that he showed himself to be alive by many proofs. How do Baha'is explain away those verses? Because I can very easily. I could say that they made up the story. None of that really happened. But I could be wrong. Why are Baha'is right about him not resurrecting?

 

[CG Didymus]

Every society has rules and laws to protect itself. The Baha’i society is no different.

And that's the problem. Society has accepted homosexuality as being normal. Baha'i society says it is wrong and is forbidden. Society has accepted gays is protecting them against religions that say being gay is wrong and is sinful, shameful, abhorrent etc. Baha'is believe that their society, the Baha'i community, must be protected against homosexuality.

 

[CG Didymus]

Immorality.

It protects them from immorality? As if forbidding it, condemning it, has ever stopped it. Homosexuality will continue, but in secret. Where "proper" society is protected from having to see it and deal with it?

 

[CG Didymus]

And you don't see the problem with this concept? I do, even with my error-prone mind. The answer is not guessing who to follow and following them. The answer is to learn critical thinking and decide these things for yourself. Your error rate will plummet if you can do it. You wouldn't have made the comment above.

Yeah, it's a little strange that an "error" prone mind would be able to know for sure which religion, which concept of God or Gods, or no God was true, and follow it with absolute certainty.

 

[dybmh]

Okay, so then I wonder who called Baha'u'llah "Lord of Hosts"? And because they did, not only everytime the Bible says "Glory of God" it is a reference to Baha'u'llah, but every time it says "Lord of Hosts" also. Plus, how many "names" of God are there. Baha'is, I'm sure, will say that they all refer to Baha'u'llah. But, to the Jew, aren't those names about God and not the Messiah?

Well, Baha'u'llah can't be "the glory of God". Isn't he supposed to share a spirit with all the manifestations? Take a look at Exodus 24:16-17. The glory of God descends on the mountain in front of Moses. This would put Baha'u'llah in two places at the same time. He can't be both Moses and the Glory of God at the same time.

So, if the context is about the retribution and commitment, would a prophecy be thrown into one verse within that context? Or is it just an example of a religion cherry picking the Bible?

Interpreting Isaiah 54:5 as prophey about Baha'u'llah ignores the surrounding verses. Yes, to me, that's cherry picking. For an example of prophecy in Isaiah, look at chapter 11.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, Baha'u'llah can't be "the glory of God". Isn't he supposed to share a spirit with all the manifestations? Take a look at Exodus 24:16-17. The glory of God descends on the mountain in front of Moses. This would put Baha'u'llah in two places at the same time. He can't be both Moses and the Glory of God at the same time.

Yes they can appear. Just as the human race are of the one human spirit, the Messengers from God are of the One Holy Spirit.

The Messengers of God are uncountable, they are represented by all the Suns in creation.

You have mentioned an interesting meditation, that the Messengers send themselves.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

You keep saying that the laws had to be harsh as if they were nomads in the desert. The Bible story has them wandering in the desert for 40 years, then they took the Land of Canaan and lived in cities and villages.

At that time they didn’t have the rehabilitation facilities we do now.