Homosexuality and religious.

[loverofhumanity]

The question was... Where in the NT does it make it sound as if the resurrection wasn't a real physical resurrection? Let me tell you where it does. He was touched and said that he had flesh and bone. And in Acts it says that he showed himself to be alive by many proofs. How do Baha'is explain away those verses? Because I can very easily. I could say that they made up the story. None of that really happened. But I could be wrong. Why are Baha'is right about him not resurrecting?

Dreams and visions. I once had a dream someone told a funny joke. It was so funny I woke up laughing and woke up my wife and we both laughed until we cried.

And then there’s Mount Tabor where the disciples saw the Heavenly Father and Moses but Christ told them to tell the vision to no one.

They saw these things is spiritual visions not waking life.

 

[Vinayaka]

Okay, so then I wonder who called Baha'u'llah "Lord of Hosts"? And because they did, not only everytime the Bible says "Glory of God" it is a reference to Baha'u'llah, but every time it says "Lord of Hosts" also. Plus, how many "names" of God are there. Baha'is, I'm sure, will say that they all refer to Baha'u'llah. But, to the Jew, aren't those names about God and not the Messiah?

So, if the context is about the retribution and commitment, would a prophecy be thrown into one verse within that context? Or is it just an example of a religion cherry picking the Bible?

It seems to me Baha'u'llah made up several phrases to describe himself. Once he declared himself as the new manifestation, it follows he could do that as well. There are many phrases or titles of greatness.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It seems to me Baha'u'llah made up several phrases to describe himself. Once he declared himself as the new manifestation, it follows he could do that as well. There are many phrases or titles of greatness.

The Titles were already recorded about Baha'u'llah, the Message given fulfilled those Titles, they were given to Baha'u'llah for this age.

The book God passes by by Shoghi Effendi is the one that Identifies all the Tiles given in the past and in this day to the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

At this link is pages 91 to 95

Titles of Baha’u’llah

Spoiler: Names

An extract "... In the name He bore He combined those of the Imám Husayn, the most illustrious of the successors of the Apostle of God--the brightest "star" shining in the "crown" mentioned in the Revelation of St. John--and of the Imám `Alí, the Commander of the Faithful, the second of the two "witnesses" extolled in that same Book. He was formally designated Bahá'u'lláh, an appellation specifically recorded in the Persian Bayán, signifying at once the glory, the light and the splendor of God, and was styled the "Lord of Lords," the "Most Great Name," the "Ancient Beauty," the "Pen of the Most High," the "Hidden Name," the "Preserved Treasure," "He Whom God will make manifest," the "Most Great Light," the "All-Highest Horizon," the "Most Great Ocean," the "Supreme Heaven," the "Pre-Existent Root," the "Self-Subsistent," the "Day-Star of the Universe," the "Great Announcement," the "Speaker on Sinai," the "Sifter of Men," the "Wronged One of the World," the "Desire of the Nations," the "Lord of the Covenant," the "Tree beyond which there is no passing." He derived His descent, on the one hand, from Abraham (the Father of the Faithful) through his wife Katurah, and on the other from Zoroaster, as well as from Yazdigird, the last king of the Sásáníyán dynasty. He was moreover a descendant of Jesse, and belonged, through His father, Mírzá Abbás, better known as Mírzá Buzurg--a nobleman closely associated with the ministerial circles of the Court of Fath-`Alí Sháh--to one of the most ancient and renowned families of Mazindarán...."

There is a few pages on both the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

The Titles were already recorded about Baha'u'llah, the Message given fulfilled those Titles, they were given to Baha'u'llah for this age.

The book God passes by by Shoghi Effendi is the one that Identifies all the Tiles given in the past and in this day to the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

At this link is pages 91 to 95

Titles of Baha’u’llah

Spoiler: Names

An extract "... In the name He bore He combined those of the Imám Husayn, the most illustrious of the successors of the Apostle of God--the brightest "star" shining in the "crown" mentioned in the Revelation of St. John--and of the Imám `Alí, the Commander of the Faithful, the second of the two "witnesses" extolled in that same Book. He was formally designated Bahá'u'lláh, an appellation specifically recorded in the Persian Bayán, signifying at once the glory, the light and the splendor of God, and was styled the "Lord of Lords," the "Most Great Name," the "Ancient Beauty," the "Pen of the Most High," the "Hidden Name," the "Preserved Treasure," "He Whom God will make manifest," the "Most Great Light," the "All-Highest Horizon," the "Most Great Ocean," the "Supreme Heaven," the "Pre-Existent Root," the "Self-Subsistent," the "Day-Star of the Universe," the "Great Announcement," the "Speaker on Sinai," the "Sifter of Men," the "Wronged One of the World," the "Desire of the Nations," the "Lord of the Covenant," the "Tree beyond which there is no passing." He derived His descent, on the one hand, from Abraham (the Father of the Faithful) through his wife Katurah, and on the other from Zoroaster, as well as from Yazdigird, the last king of the Sásáníyán dynasty. He was moreover a descendant of Jesse, and belonged, through His father, Mírzá Abbás, better known as Mírzá Buzurg--a nobleman closely associated with the ministerial circles of the Court of Fath-`Alí Sháh--to one of the most ancient and renowned families of Mazindarán...."

There is a few pages on both the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

The Titles were already recorded about Baha'u'llah, the Message given fulfilled those Titles, they were given to Baha'u'llah for this age.

The book God passes by by Shoghi Effendi is the one that Identifies all the Tiles given in the past and in this day to the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

At this link is pages 91 to 95

Titles of Baha’u’llah

Spoiler: Names

An extract "... In the name He bore He combined those of the Imám Husayn, the most illustrious of the successors of the Apostle of God--the brightest "star" shining in the "crown" mentioned in the Revelation of St. John--and of the Imám `Alí, the Commander of the Faithful, the second of the two "witnesses" extolled in that same Book. He was formally designated Bahá'u'lláh, an appellation specifically recorded in the Persian Bayán, signifying at once the glory, the light and the splendor of God, and was styled the "Lord of Lords," the "Most Great Name," the "Ancient Beauty," the "Pen of the Most High," the "Hidden Name," the "Preserved Treasure," "He Whom God will make manifest," the "Most Great Light," the "All-Highest Horizon," the "Most Great Ocean," the "Supreme Heaven," the "Pre-Existent Root," the "Self-Subsistent," the "Day-Star of the Universe," the "Great Announcement," the "Speaker on Sinai," the "Sifter of Men," the "Wronged One of the World," the "Desire of the Nations," the "Lord of the Covenant," the "Tree beyond which there is no passing." He derived His descent, on the one hand, from Abraham (the Father of the Faithful) through his wife Katurah, and on the other from Zoroaster, as well as from Yazdigird, the last king of the Sásáníyán dynasty. He was moreover a descendant of Jesse, and belonged, through His father, Mírzá Abbás, better known as Mírzá Buzurg--a nobleman closely associated with the ministerial circles of the Court of Fath-`Alí Sháh--to one of the most ancient and renowned families of Mazindarán...."

There is a few pages on both the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

Hi Tony. I can't find anywhere where it clearly gives the source of all these names.

 

[CG Didymus]

At that time they didn’t have the rehabilitation facilities we do now.

Here's what I found about prisons...

From the birth of modern civilization in 3rd millennia BC, almost every major ancient civilization used concept of prisons as a mean to detain and remove personal freedoms of incarcerated people.
In addition of holding convicted or suspected criminals, prisons were often used for holding political prisoners, enemies of the state and prisoners of war. The earliest records of prisons come from the 1st millennia BC, located on the areas of mighty ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia and Egypt.​

 

[CG Didymus]

Dreams and visions. I once had a dream someone told a funny joke. It was so funny I woke up laughing and woke up my wife and we both laughed until we cried.

And then there’s Mount Tabor where the disciples saw the Heavenly Father and Moses but Christ told them to tell the vision to no one.

They saw these things is spiritual visions not waking life.

There are dreams in the NT. The resurrection is told as if it really happened. If Mary, Peter and John were all dreaming, why wouldn't the gospel writers say so. No, I believe they meant that Jesus was dead and came back to life. As I've said before, that doesn't make it true. They could have made up the story and hidden the body. One thing for sure, the Baha'is have no use for a literal, physically resurrected Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

It seems to me Baha'u'llah made up several phrases to describe himself. Once he declared himself as the new manifestation, it follows he could do that as well. There are many phrases or titles of greatness.

Yeah, it doesn't mean much if he or his followers gave him all sorts of Godly titles. But then he claims the title of "Kalki" from Hinduism. But other than that particular sect of Hinduism, who else believes in the prophecies about Kalki? But Krishna and Kalki are easy things for Baha'is to latch on to. They needed a connection to Hinduism, and they found one.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi Tony. I can't find anywhere where it clearly gives the source of all these names.

Thank you Vinayaka.

They are individually recorded in various religious scriptures. They were collated by Shoghi Effendi when he wrote God passes by.

Amatu'l-Bahá Rúhíyyih Khánum, the wife of Shoghi Effendi told us how that book was written, it was during the 2nd world war. Shoghi Effendi first studied for a year from all sources and then from all those notes, wrote that book.

Personally I have found it an amazing read. Very well written, albeit many may dispute the contents.

In the end, Shoghi Effendi also reflects our participation on RF by offering the way the Message was Proclaimed.

"Never since the beginning of the world hath the Message been so openly proclaimed"

It started with all the Messages to the World's Rulers as a collection in the "Summons of the Lord of Hosts".

Spoiler: Never Before

Referring to these Tablets addressed to the sovereigns of the earth, and which ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has acclaimed as a “miracle,” Bahá’u’lláh has written: “Each one of them hath been designated by a special name. The first hath been named ‘The Rumbling,’ the second, ‘The Blow,’ the third, ‘The Inevitable,’ the fourth, ‘The Plain,’ the fifth, ‘The Catastrophe,’ and the others, ‘The Stunning Trumpet Blast,’ ‘The Near Event,’ ‘The Great Terror,’ ‘The Trumpet,’ ‘The Bugle,’ and their like, so that all the peoples of the earth may know, of a certainty, and may witness, with outward and inner eyes, that He Who is the Lord of Names hath prevailed, and will continue to prevail, under all conditions, over all men…. Never since the beginning of the world hath the Message been so openly proclaimed

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 44-49

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi Tony. I can't find anywhere where it clearly gives the source of all these names.

Sorry, I must also add that Shoghi Effendi did quote the source of the Titles in the Book.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Thank you Vinayaka.

They are individually recorded in various religious scriptures. They were collated by Shoghi Effendi when he wrote God passes by.

Amatu'l-Bahá Rúhíyyih Khánum, the wife of Shoghi Effendi told us how that book was written, it was during the 2nd world war. Shoghi Effendi first studied for a year from all sources and then from all those notes, wrote that book.

Personally I have found it an amazing read. Very well written, albeit many may dispute the contents.

In the end, Shoghi Effendi also reflects our participation on RF by offering the way the Message was Proclaimed.

"Never since the beginning of the world hath the Message been so openly proclaimed"

It started with all the Messages to the World's Rulers as a collection in the "Summons of the Lord of Hosts".

Spoiler: Never Before

Referring to these Tablets addressed to the sovereigns of the earth, and which ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has acclaimed as a “miracle,” Bahá’u’lláh has written: “Each one of them hath been designated by a special name. The first hath been named ‘The Rumbling,’ the second, ‘The Blow,’ the third, ‘The Inevitable,’ the fourth, ‘The Plain,’ the fifth, ‘The Catastrophe,’ and the others, ‘The Stunning Trumpet Blast,’ ‘The Near Event,’ ‘The Great Terror,’ ‘The Trumpet,’ ‘The Bugle,’ and their like, so that all the peoples of the earth may know, of a certainty, and may witness, with outward and inner eyes, that He Who is the Lord of Names hath prevailed, and will continue to prevail, under all conditions, over all men…. Never since the beginning of the world hath the Message been so openly proclaimed

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 44-49

All the best, Regards Tony

So who gave him these titles? His followers, or himself, of God? I still have no idea.

 

[We Never Know]

I couldn't think of a better thread that this needs to be on.....

 

[loverofhumanity]

Here's what I found about prisons...

From the birth of modern civilization in 3rd millennia BC, almost every major ancient civilization used concept of prisons as a mean to detain and remove personal freedoms of incarcerated people.
In addition of holding convicted or suspected criminals, prisons were often used for holding political prisoners, enemies of the state and prisoners of war. The earliest records of prisons come from the 1st millennia BC, located on the areas of mighty ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia and Egypt.​

Perhaps in populated cities but not the desert where Muhammad and Moses appeared.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There are dreams in the NT. The resurrection is told as if it really happened. If Mary, Peter and John were all dreaming, why wouldn't the gospel writers say so. No, I believe they meant that Jesus was dead and came back to life. As I've said before, that doesn't make it true. They could have made up the story and hidden the body. One thing for sure, the Baha'is have no use for a literal, physically resurrected Jesus.

I don’t believe it because the Bible is a spiritual Book about spiritual matters and also the concept of resurrection is against science. People can be revived but once they are dead and buried that’s it. The fact they haven’t revealed the location of Christ’s Body does not mean it doesn’t exist just that it has been kept a secret. There is no such thing as a dead and buried person rise from their grave. It means in the Bible to rise spiritually but some want to say that their faith is supreme over all others and the only true faith by resorting to superstition whereas the Bible is speaking about a spiritual concept.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don’t believe it because the Bible is a spiritual Book about spiritual matters and also the concept of resurrection is against science. People can be revived but once they are dead and buried that’s it. The fact they haven’t revealed the location of Christ’s Body does not mean it doesn’t exist just that it has been kept a secret. There is no such thing as a dead and buried person rise from their grave. It means in the Bible to rise spiritually but some want to say that their faith is supreme over all others and the only true faith by resorting to superstition whereas the Bible is speaking about a spiritual concept.

So, because it is a "spiritual" book if it says a person came back to life after being dead, it can't be true? I imagine by that you mean that it therefore meant the person was dead "spiritually" and came back to life "spiritually"? Then again, 2000 years ago what science did they have that said resurrecting from the dead was impossible? But then to relate it to this thread, what does science say about homosexuality? Does science agree with the belief of some religions that it is abnormal? Or is that a superstitious religious unprovable belief?

Anyway, like I said, just because the Bible and NT say that people were resurrected doesn't mean it's true. But I do believe that is what these stories are saying. Again, call them lies, call them myths, call them whatever you like but why call them dreams or saying that it is a "spiritual" concept? Or, because Baha'is believe the Bible and the NT are from God, why not believe in the miracle? That the God that creating the universe out of nothing can breathe life back into a dead body? Why can't Baha'is believe that? Is that something that is impossible for God? Again, why do Baha'is need Jesus to be dead and gone physically?

Here's some verses about people that were resurrected in the Bible and the NT. Tell me how these were dreams or just a "spiritual" resurrection? If you don't believe them, then the easier belief would be that these stories were just made up to impress people about the power of God and his prophets. Oh, but I'll bet if Baha'u'llah had raised someone from the dead, regardless of science, you'd believe it.

There are nine individuals in the Bible presented as being raised from the dead. Of these miraculous resurrections, three occur in the Old Testament. At least three individuals were raised from the dead by Jesus. Both Peter and Paul raised a person from the dead and most importantly of all, Jesus himself was resurrected.

Elijah Resurrected The Son Of Zarephath’s Widow
1 Kings 17:17-24 (KJV)
Elisha Resurrected The Son Of The Great Shunammite Woman
2 Kings 4:35 (KJV)
A Dead Man Comes Back To Life When He Touches Elisha’s Bones
2 Kings 13:21 (KJV)
Jesus Resurrects The Widow’s Son At Nain
Luke 7:13-15 (KJV)
Jesus Raises Jairus’ Daughter From The Dead
Matthew 9:25 (KJV)
Jesus Raises Lazarus From The Dead
John 11:43-44 (KJV)
Many Saints Resurrected At Jesus’ Crucifixion
Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV)
Christ’s Resurrection
Matthew 28:5-7 (KJV)
Peter Raises A Female Disciple Named Tabitha From The Dead
Acts 9:36-42 (KJV)
Paul Raises Eutychus From The Dead
Acts 20:9-12 (KJV)
​

 

[CG Didymus]

Isn't this the definition of a closed mind? What you're saying is that if you are demonstrably wrong, there is no way for you to discover that.

You're not alone. Two very well-known theists agree with you that neither evidence nor reason could change their minds about what they have chosen to believe by faith, and are proud to tell you so:

• The moderator in the debate between Ken Ham and Bill Nye on whether creationism is a viable scientific pursuit asked, “What would change your minds?” Scientist Bill Nye answered, “Evidence.” Young Earth Creationist Ken Ham answered, “Nothing. I'm a Christian.” Elsewhere, Ham stated, “By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record."

• "The way in which I know Christianity is true is first and foremost on the basis of the witness of the Holy Spirit in my heart. And this gives me a self-authenticating means of knowing Christianity is true wholly apart from the evidence. And therefore, even if in some historically contingent circumstances the evidence that I have available to me should turn against Christianity, I do not think that this controverts the witness of the Holy Spirit. In such a situation, I should regard that as simply a result of the contingent circumstances that I'm in, and that if I were to pursue this with due diligence and with time, I would discover that the evidence, if in fact I could get the correct picture, would support exactly what the witness of the Holy Spirit tells me. So I think that's very important to get the relationship between faith and reason right..." - William Lane Craig

This was in response to...

God’s infallibility to me trumps any amount of critical thinking however astute.

Lots of religions and sects of those religions believe that their Scriptures, their "truth" trumps everything. But again and again and again, it is the Baha'i Faith that makes that statement about science and religion. These beliefs that "trump" science and critical thinking, without proof, can be nothing more than superstitious beliefs. That's your religion saying that.

So, where is the scientific support for the Baha'i beliefs about homosexuality? I'm sure there's some. And there's probably some that supports the idea that homosexuality isn't wrong and abnormal. But I'm absolutely sure that even if all the evidence went against the Baha'i belief, the Baha'i belief, in the minds of Baha'is, would trump all that science. Making this science and religion must agree thing, not true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So who gave him these titles? His followers, or himself, of God? I still have no idea.

The simple answer is God, as all the Names of God are given to all the Messengers, even if they are not seen in this matrix to reflect those Names.

Most likely the entire debate about the way God is revealed to us, is contained in that simple answer, so in the long run, it will be the most debatable answer.

Regard Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

So, because it is a "spiritual" book if it says a person came back to life after being dead, it can't be true? I imagine by that you mean that it therefore meant the person was dead "spiritually" and came back to life "spiritually"? Then again, 2000 years ago what science did they have that said resurrecting from the dead was impossible? But then to relate it to this thread, what does science say about homosexuality? Does science agree with the belief of some religions that it is abnormal? Or is that a superstitious religious unprovable belief?

Anyway, like I said, just because the Bible and NT say that people were resurrected doesn't mean it's true. But I do believe that is what these stories are saying. Again, call them lies, call them myths, call them whatever you like but why call them dreams or saying that it is a "spiritual" concept? Or, because Baha'is believe the Bible and the NT are from God, why not believe in the miracle? That the God that creating the universe out of nothing can breathe life back into a dead body? Why can't Baha'is believe that? Is that something that is impossible for God? Again, why do Baha'is need Jesus to be dead and gone physically?

Here's some verses about people that were resurrected in the Bible and the NT. Tell me how these were dreams or just a "spiritual" resurrection? If you don't believe them, then the easier belief would be that these stories were just made up to impress people about the power of God and his prophets. Oh, but I'll bet if Baha'u'llah had raised someone from the dead, regardless of science, you'd believe it.

There are nine individuals in the Bible presented as being raised from the dead. Of these miraculous resurrections, three occur in the Old Testament. At least three individuals were raised from the dead by Jesus. Both Peter and Paul raised a person from the dead and most importantly of all, Jesus himself was resurrected.

Elijah Resurrected The Son Of Zarephath’s Widow
1 Kings 17:17-24 (KJV)
Elisha Resurrected The Son Of The Great Shunammite Woman
2 Kings 4:35 (KJV)
A Dead Man Comes Back To Life When He Touches Elisha’s Bones
2 Kings 13:21 (KJV)
Jesus Resurrects The Widow’s Son At Nain
Luke 7:13-15 (KJV)
Jesus Raises Jairus’ Daughter From The Dead
Matthew 9:25 (KJV)
Jesus Raises Lazarus From The Dead
John 11:43-44 (KJV)
Many Saints Resurrected At Jesus’ Crucifixion
Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV)
Christ’s Resurrection
Matthew 28:5-7 (KJV)
Peter Raises A Female Disciple Named Tabitha From The Dead
Acts 9:36-42 (KJV)
Paul Raises Eutychus From The Dead
Acts 20:9-12 (KJV)
​

What benefit in bringing a person back from the dead if they are just going to die again? But if the life they were brought back to was the life of faith, then that is everlasting and of true benefit to a person. So apart from it being scientifically proven to be impossible, it serves no purpose to be brought back from the dead as the person is going to die again anyway.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This was in response to...

Lots of religions and sects of those religions believe that their Scriptures, their "truth" trumps everything. But again and again and again, it is the Baha'i Faith that makes that statement about science and religion. These beliefs that "trump" science and critical thinking, without proof, can be nothing more than superstitious beliefs. That's your religion saying that.

So, where is the scientific support for the Baha'i beliefs about homosexuality? I'm sure there some. And there's probably some that supports the idea that homosexuality isn't wrong and abnormal. But I'm absolutely sure that even if all the evidence went against the Baha'i belief, the Baha'i belief, in the minds of Baha'is, would trump all that science. Making this science and religion must agree thing, not true.

I apologise for this rather large quote but I wish to drive home the point that science is respected and accepted except where God has weighed in on an issue which is rarely but still He does occasionally make a statement against the common knowledge of the people, later verified by up to date scientific knowledge. I place homosexuality in this category.


“For example, as you know, before the observations of the renowned
astronomer of later times, that is, from the first centuries
down to the fifteenth century of the Christian era, all the mathematicians of
the world were unanimous in upholding the centrality of the earth and the
movement of the sun. This modern astronomer was the source of the new theory
that postulated the movement of the earth and the fixity of the sun. Until his
time, all the mathematicians and philosophers of the world held to the
Ptolemaic system, and whosoever uttered a word against it was considered
ignorant. It is true that Pythagoras, and Plato during the latter part of his
life, conceived that the sun’s annual movement around the zodiac did not
proceed from the sun itself but from the earth’s movement around it, but this
theory was entirely forgotten and the Ptolemaic theory was universally accepted
by all mathematicians.

But in the Qur’án a number of verses were revealed which contradicted the
Ptolemaic system. One of them, “The sun moves in a fixed place of its own”, alludes to the fixity of the sun and its movement around an axis. Likewise, in another verse
“And each swims in its own heaven”, the movement of the sun, the
moon, the earth, and the other celestial bodies is specified. When the Qur’án was spread abroad, all the mathematicians scoffed and attributed this view to ignorance. Even the Muslim divines, finding these verses contrary to the Ptolemaic system, were obliged to
interpret them figuratively, for the latter was accepted as incontrovertible
fact and yet was explicitly contradicted by the Qur’án.”

Abdul-Baha

So too, those who scoff at and mock and ridicule Baha’u’llah now will be proven wrong.

 

[joelr]

That is a choice you get. All the best I life, may it produce all you desire.

Regards Tony

No it isn't a choice. When a man claims to be speaking for a God and then gets basic facts about evolution wrong.... Then he uses an analogy to show how correct he is. Except his analogy is completely wrong and lacks basic understanding of cosmology? He thinks the sun was always in the solar system. He wasn't yet aware that humans discovered stars form in nebula and are gravitationally shot far away where they form a new solar system.
But the idea that man evolved separate is pure crank. We have 99% dna with chimps. We have a complete fossil hominid record from chimp-like hominid to H. Heidleburgensis which is almost modern humans who used tools, language and probably fire.
He took a shot back in the day. We didn't have this new information back then. He was guessing what would be discovered next or what was possible. He was was completely wrong. No Gods here.

This isn't a choice. I don't read the Roswell wiki and hear Matt Brazle found "large area of bright wreckage made up of rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks.", and later added "considerable scotch tape", no alien bodies or craft and make a "choice" to believe it was an alien ship. No more than I can look at a cliff and choose to make a "choice" that I believe an angel with wings will catch me if I jump off.

It's fiction. I don't believe fiction is real events. Revelations are also fiction. Without evidence they are fiction. With evidence like this, incorrect evolutionary and cosmology information it just provides more confirmation.

I will ask you again. Revelations are not reliable. The man in AUS claiming to be Jesus is a liar, that's without hearing him, he's lying or deluded. Because someone writes a lot and is from a different century that doesn't make it more likely. The writings are very derivative so the volume isn't impressive. So the actual content of things that can be tested is the only way to give this a small chance.
Well it failed that small chance in a big way. No choice. Provide evidence if you can.

And yes it will produce what I desire which is to believe true things and not believe false things.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No Gods here.

In that reply, there was definitely no God.

Regards Tony