Homosexuality and religious.

[F1fan]

@Vinayaka I hesitate to give an answer in detail. It is no short answer, so here is a little larger answer to show I am happy to provide further detail.

In the end it requires us to consider what Baha'u'llah offered has some merit, if not, anything offered will be already rejected and ready to be disputed. I see that as a fair comment, I feel you will see that is applicable?

I will expand a little on the Names of God, as it is recorded and I do see that these Names and Attributes are one of the greatest things that can veil us from God. It could be that it is our greatest challenge in this world!

All the Names and Attributes are the 'Cause' they all come from the Spirit that gives existence to Creation. I previously offered this Tablet by Abdul'baha, a provisional translation, so some wording could change.

Tablet of the Universe (Lawh-i-Aflákiyyih)

The opening paragraphs of that Tablet tell us of the beginning of creation

"Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds..."

So how does this tie into the Names that are Attributed to Baha'u'llah?

All the Messengers from the first to the Last are manifested in this world from that same Holy Spirit and as such they are One and all the Embodiment of all the Names and Attributes, though outwardly they may only be known by a Single Name and only seen by some to be the embodiment of a few Attributes. This has been explained in great detail in the Baha'i Writings.

So Krishna is a Name that contains all the Names and Attributes of God, Krishna can also be known as Baha'u'llah (Glory of God), as their Essence is One and the same. We humans only perceive what we choose to see in Krishna, it is relative to our chosen frames of references. To some Krishna is God, to others whatever they perceive. To a Baha'i, they all have become One in the name of Baha’u’llah, or we perceive them all as the "Glory of God". Baha'u'llah offered;

"These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory..."

Which brings us to the conclusion that Shoghi Effendi gave us in the book "God Passes By".

All the Names, Titles and Attributes, in every Holy Book ever written, that references a future promise to be fulfilled, belong to the Messenger/s that gave them, came before them and were to fulfill them, they are already written and recorded for them to manifest when they are revealed. All Shoghi Effendi did, was research and put them together for our quick reference.

This can be discussed in many ways, there is much more to consider, this answer does not even scratch the surface, it is very superficial.

I am always happy to share what I have found. We live in a truly bountiful and amazing time.

Regards Tony

None of this is factual descriptions. This reads like fiction.

Im not sure why you write out these paragraphs as an answer to critical thinkers who you know do not make the same assumptions you do. Do you not understand we are asking for factual and rational answers?

 

[dybmh]

The giving of titles sounds way too much like patting friends on the back

Or it's cultural appropriation when the titles given are from another group's scripture?

 

[F1fan]

Science can never prove God to be wrong otherwise He would not be God. God is the greatest of all scientists and knows everything unlike humans who have finite minds.

There are no Gods known to exist. You referring to one as if it does js a claim, not a factual explanation.

 

[CG Didymus]

How can somebody who is infallible be wrong about his own infallibility?

That is so true. I think Baha'is should use that. It goes perfect with, "God is real, because Baha'u'llah said so. And he should know, because he is a manifestation of God."

 

[CG Didymus]

The Holy Books are not science but occasionally a statement will be included that is later proved by science.

But some people claim that they are the absolute truth. So, can we get back on the topic of homosexuality. Does science support the Baha'i belief that homosexuality is abnormal and must be condemned? Oh, and Baha'is suggest that a homosexual can "overcome" their gayness by getting therapy. What have been the results of the therapies that have been tried on homosexuals to, I guess what? Make the "normal"? Let's discuss those things. Oh, and one more thing, since Baha'u'llah can't be wrong, then what he said about homosexuality being wrong is the truth, so science should support it, right?

 

[loverofhumanity]

There are no Gods known to exist. You referring to one as if it does js a claim, not a factual explanation.

To you it is. I have enough proof and evidence for myself that convinces me otherwise.

 

[CG Didymus]

King James Bible
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

It’s very easy to explain. For example the Body of Christ’s Cause lay for three days in the tomb of doubt and disbelief then after three days when the disciples recognised the true station of Christ His Cause became alive risen. There is no such thing as bodily resurrection and science can prove that. Christianity has had 2,000 to wake up that this belief is superstition and that is why so many have left because dead people do not come alive days after they have died.

Baha’u’llah explains that all these terms have a deeper spiritual context that makes sense such as the tomb of self, the death of unbelief and the life of faith. It’s like the 7 days of creation. The earth is some 4.5 billion years old proven by scientists so either one is accusing the Bible of being superstition and not a Book of God or there is another meaning. Abdul-Baha says the 7 days are Divine Days that is, the Days on which a Manifestation arises and in the Adamic Cycle there were about 7 spanning about 7,000 years and that makes perfect sense if we are speaking about the history of religion.

But without Baha’u’llah’s interpretations Christians will weave superstitious ideas around these passages and critical thinkers and atheists will attack such nonsense. Stories like Adam and Eve, Noah’s Ark and the Red Sea are just stories and we’re never actual events. There are stories and parables for our spiritual development. But only a Manifestation of God it says knows all the meanings and which are literal and which are figurative or in some cases both.

The Bible does not oppose science so there is always an explanation which accords with both the Bible and science. But where it doesn’t accord with science, we should not accept the superstitious interpretation as it is not according to reason and logic.

Yes, that's the Baha'i belief. I don't believe it. If not literally true, which is always a possibility, I think it was all myth. To me, a much easier to believe explanation. The Baha'i explanation needs all four gospel writers to have written some mystical, symbolic, seemingly real story about Jesus coming back to life, but, in actuality, it was a symbolic story. And if that's what you want to believe fine. But I think it destroys the credibility of the Baha'i Faith. It makes the Baha'i Faith just another religion the twists and turns the Scriptures of the other religions to suit their needs. And the needs of the Baha'i Faith is to have a dead and gone Jesus. Join the club, lots of people don't want the gospel stories to be true.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But some people claim that they are the absolute truth. So, can we get back on the topic of homosexuality. Does science support the Baha'i belief that homosexuality is abnormal and must be condemned? Oh, and Baha'is suggest that a homosexual can "overcome" their gayness by getting therapy. What have been the results of the therapies that have been tried on homosexuals to, I guess what? Make the "normal"? Let's discuss those things. Oh, and one more thing, since Baha'u'llah can't be wrong, then what he said about homosexuality being wrong is the truth, so science should support it, right?

We are going around in circles. I have already answered that what the Manifestation says is truth whether people agree with it or not and that in time science will confirm it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, that's the Baha'i belief. I don't believe it. If not literally true, which is always a possibility, I think it was all myth. To me, a much easier to believe explanation. The Baha'i explanation needs all four gospel writers to have written some mystical, symbolic, seemingly real story about Jesus coming back to life, but, in actuality, it was a symbolic story. And if that's what you want to believe fine. But I think it destroys the credibility of the Baha'i Faith. It makes the Baha'i Faith just another religion the twists and turns the Scriptures of the other religions to suit their needs. And the needs of the Baha'i Faith is to have and dead and gone Jesus. Join the club, lots of people don't want the gospel stories to be true.

I think it’s the other way round. Christianity wants the second coming off the agenda because having to accept it means to reject the clergy and turn to Baha’u’llah and those who have been controlling peoples minds for centuries don’t want that.

The credibility of the Faith is done no damage by criticism I assure you. Criticism and slander only serve to spread it further. The Babi martyrs were the cause of the Faith spreading all over the world so the more people oppose the better. The Faith will never be done any damage by its detractors.

 

[CG Didymus]

It’s very easy to explain. For example the Body of Christ’s Cause lay for three days in the tomb of doubt and disbelief then after three days when the disciples recognised the true station of Christ His Cause became alive risen.

Except the disciples didn't start believing after three days. Get your story straight. After three days they went to the tomb. At the tomb what is the Baha'i belief? That Mary and the others had a vision? Is that what Baha'is believe? But some still had doubts. Then over forty days there were more visions? Then the one where one of the disciples actually touched Jesus and it felt real, as if he had flesh and bone. Then another vision, some of them saw him ascend into the clouds. Then the big turning point, Pentecost. That's when they started preaching. And what did they preach about?

Acts 2:22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him...
29 David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.​

There's no support for the Baha'i explanation other than it is impossible for God to bring a dead person back to life. But that's how the story goes. BS or the truth? Or, if you're good with ignoring what the NT says, go with the Baha'i explanation. I'm more inclined to believe it was made up embellished myths and legends. It was just made-up stories to get people to believe. And the Baha'i version is made up to get people to not believe the gospel story literally but figuratively. But it doesn't fit the narrative.

 

[CG Didymus]

We are going around in circles. I have already answered that what the Manifestation says is truth whether people agree with it or not and that in time science will confirm it.

Science has had time. What does it say? Are Baha'is afraid that it will say that the Baha'i belief is wrong? That it is superstitious? So, Baha'is will keep waiting until such time that "true" science catches up to the "truth" of the Baha'i Faith? Okay, let's ignore science. But that's not what the Baha'i Faith teaches. So, new Baha'i doctrine... Science that agrees with the Baha'i Faith goes hand and hand with religion. Science that disagrees with the Baha'i Faith is wrong and should not be listened to.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Except the disciples didn't start believing after three days. Get your story straight. After three days they went to the tomb. At the tomb what is the Baha'i belief? That Mary and the others had a vision? Is that what Baha'is believe? But some still had doubts. Then over forty days there were more visions? Then the one where one of the disciples actually touched Jesus and it felt real, as if he had flesh and bone. Then another vision, some of them saw him ascend into the clouds. Then the big turning point, Pentecost. That's when they started preaching. And what did they preach about?

Acts 2:22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him...
29 David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.​

There's no support for the Baha'i explanation other than it is impossible for God to bring a dead person back to life. But that's how the story goes. BS or the truth? Or, if you're good with ignoring what the NT says, go with the Baha'i explanation. I'm more inclined to believe it was made up embellished myths and legends. It was just made-up stories to get people to believe. And the Baha'i version is made up to get people to not believe the gospel story literally but figuratively. But it doesn't fit the narrative.

This is the Resurrection from the official Baha’i view by Abdul-Baha. This is what we believe.


Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

 

[CG Didymus]

I think it’s the other way round. Christianity wants the second coming off the agenda because having to accept it means to reject the clergy and turn to Baha’u’llah and those who have been controlling peoples minds for centuries don’t want that.

Christians have their leaders and Baha'is have theirs. They both have a great influence on the followers of each religion. But this shows the true attitude of the Baha'i Faith towards another major religion... the leaders are "controlling" their minds. Yes, but it can be applied to Baha'is also. How many Baha'is really believe homosexuality is wrong and that it should be forbidden? Are some okay with letting homosexuals have sex with each other? They can't. Because it goes against the Baha'i laws. That's controlling how they think. That's your leader pushing that on the Baha'is. And they have to do it. It is their job to make sure all Baha'is obey the laws of the Faith.

I agree with the Atheists. Think for yourself. Don't listen to Christian preachers or Baha'i leaders. And why include the Baha'i Faith in the mix? Because, like some version of Christianity, the followers, to be faithful believers, must obey all the rules. Now maybe you do believe guys on guys and woman on woman is wrong, unnatural and should not be allowed. But if you don't, then why do you let your religion tell you to believe it is? So, which is it? Do you, on your own believe homosexuality is wrong or do you think it's okay, but because the Baha'i Fatih says it's wrong, you go along with it, because, after all, the law came from God. Either way, it's okay with me. I understand. Just admit which one it is.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Science has had time. What does it say? Are Baha'is afraid that it will say that the Baha'i belief is wrong? That it is superstitious? So, Baha'is will keep waiting until such time that "true" science catches up to the "truth" of the Baha'i Faith? Okay, let's ignore science. But that's not what the Baha'i Faith teaches. So, new Baha'i doctrine... Science that agrees with the Baha'i Faith goes hand and hand with religion. Science that disagrees with the Baha'i Faith is wrong and should not be listened to.

The principle of Faith is to accept anything the Manifestation of God says, once you have accepted Him as being the Manifestation. That is really the crux of the whole matter. It is a question of confidence." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 14, 1955, Lights of Guidance, p. 478, #1580)

 

[CG Didymus]

This is the Resurrection from the official Baha’i view by Abdul-Baha. This is what we believe.


Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Yes, I know. I've read it and disagree with it. I don't believe the gospel writers were that ingenious to come up with such a mystical story that had all these secret, symbolic meanings. Like I keep saying. I don't want to believe it either.

But what do I know it may be true. But I suspect, it is a made-up story. It could easily have been a hoax. The disciples took the body and hid it, then made up the stories about seeing the risen Jesus. And some Baha'is here have said that is what they think happened. But if that's true, that why would this "symbolic" story be real? Because the actual story, the literal story was never true, and the writers probably knew it. But they passed on the make-believe story of the resurrection.

In fact, explain that to me. The disciples took the body and hid it, then spread the rumor that Jesus had appeared to them but then ascended into heaven. The gospel writers years later go with that and write about how Jesus had come back to life three days later, then appeared to them over the next forty days, then ascended to heaven. But that story is a fabrication. It is totally made-up. The true story, supposedly, is that Jesus died, and they hid the body. That means this "symbolic" story of Abdul Baha's is based on the phony, made up story? Yeah, explain that to me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Christians have their leaders and Baha'is have theirs. They both have a great influence on the followers of each religion. But this shows the true attitude of the Baha'i Faith towards another major religion... the leaders are "controlling" their minds. Yes, but it can be applied to Baha'is also. How many Baha'is really believe homosexuality is wrong and that it should be forbidden? Are some okay with letting homosexuals have sex with each other? They can't. Because it goes against the Baha'i laws. That's controlling how they think. That's your leader pushing that on the Baha'is. And they have to do it. It is their job to make sure all Baha'is obey the laws of the Faith.

I agree with the Atheists. Think for yourself. Don't listen to Christian preachers or Baha'i leaders. And why include the Baha'i Faith in the mix? Because, like some version of Christianity, the followers, to be faithful believers, must obey all the rules. Now maybe you do believe guys on guys and woman on woman is wrong, unnatural and should not be allowed. But if you don't, then why do you let your religion tell you to believe it is? So, which is it? Do you, on your own believe homosexuality is wrong or do you think it's okay, but because the Baha'i Fatih says it's wrong, you go along with it, because, after all, the law came from God. Either way, it's okay with me. I understand. Just admit which one it is.

I have always believed homosexuality is wrong. As to control we don’t have clergy. We have the Manifestation of God and we turn to His Writings for guidance.

 

[CG Didymus]

The principle of Faith is to accept anything the Manifestation of God says, once you have accepted Him as being the Manifestation. That is really the crux of the whole matter. It is a question of confidence." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 14, 1955, Lights of Guidance, p. 478, #1580)

And so, it is with some of the other religions, especially Evangelical Christianity. Once they believe they take the whole Bible very literally. Since it is the word of God, isn't it? But Baha'is don't believe they should take the Bible too literally. Just their religion should be taken literally. Yes, Christians are told to have confidence in the Bible and the NT, but then Baha'is tell them no, that some of the stories are symbolic, and they are being foolish not to see that. But when some people tell Baha'is that they are being foolish with some of the things they believe... well, that's different. It is the absolute truth from God.

Either one may be true. Or maybe both are wrong. And how would we know? Ah, yes critical thinking and objective evidence and all that stuff that Atheists have called for. They are right calling out those literal believing Christians, right? But they are wrong about the Baha'is? It's okay for Baha'is not to have objective evidence? Yes, it is okay, for Baha'is, not for Atheists. Without it, there is no reason to accept the claims.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have always believed homosexuality is wrong. As to control we don’t have clergy. We have the Manifestation of God and we turn to His Writings for guidance.

Okay, why is it wrong? And what should we do about it? Telling them to stop doing it isn't going to work. Should we fine them? Have them fixed? Throw them in jail? Even having them killed didn't stop them. So, if we're not going to stop them, what do we do? Give up and accept them? God forbid. I know, just let them carry on and we'll keep telling them that they are evil sinners and going to hell. Oh yeah, Christians tried that already, and that didn't work either. What do we do?

Wait, Baha'u'llah has the answer. He's the great physician that knows how to cure all the ills of society. Yes, therapy, or get married to a person of the opposite sex or live every day for the rest of your life without sex. But that's for gay Baha'is only. What do we do with the growing gay community? They must be stopped. They are a bad influence on "normal" society. What should we do?

 

[Brian2]

I would say so.

Which other categories do you see?

The category of people who might see homosexual act as wrong in God's eyes but who have nothing against gay people.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, I know. I've read it and disagree with it. I don't believe the gospel writers were that ingenious to come up with such a mystical story that had all these secret, symbolic meanings. Like I keep saying. I don't want to believe it either.

But what do I know it may be true. But I suspect, it is a made-up story. It could easily have been a hoax. The disciples took the body and hid it, then made up the stories about seeing the risen Jesus. And some Baha'is here have said that is what they think happened. But if that's true, that why would this "symbolic" story be real? Because the actual story, the literal story was never true, and the writers probably knew it. But they passed on the make-believe story of the resurrection.

In fact, explain that to me. The disciples took the body and hid it, then spread the rumor that Jesus had appeared to them but then ascended into heaven. The gospel writers years later go with that and write about how Jesus had come back to life three days later, then appeared to them over the next forty days, then ascended to heaven. But that story is a fabrication. It is totally made-up. The true story, supposedly, is that Jesus died, and they hid the body. That means this "symbolic" story of Abdul Baha's is based on the phony, made up story? Yeah, explain that to me.

Baha’u’llah did say in the Book of Certitude that symbolic stories are a test to prove the hearts. So although Christ died and His Body has never been found, Christianity has based its belief on the Resurrection instead of the power of Jesus to transform lives. And that is keeping them from recognising Baha’u’llah because they are so attached to the symbolic story as a literal one that it’s a severe test. Just like other Faiths have some belief that tests them so much that they reject the new Manifestation. But those who have recognised Baha’u’llah are those who have been able to rise above these tests.

So the resurrection is not a problem for Christian Baha’is nor the Seal of the Prophets for Muslim Baha’is. It’s not easy to recognise a Manifestation of God. One must become worthy


“Know verily that the purpose
underlying all these symbolic terms and abstruse allusions, which emanate from
the Revealers of God’s holy Cause, hath been to test and prove the peoples of
the world; that thereby the earth of the pure and illuminated hearts may be
known from the perishable and barren soil”

The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh