Homosexuality and religious.

[loverofhumanity]

And don't Baha'is believe the world is going the wrong way? And, apparently, that includes its acceptance of gays. The way I understand it, the Baha'i Faith is waiting for the old world order to crumble, for disasters to strike and bring the world to the verge of extinction, then finally, the world will turn to the Baha'i Faith. But some Baha'is say that is not true. But I was told this by Baha'is. If true, then the Baha'is will have the power and will be able to put their laws into practice. No strip clubs, no alcohol, no drugs, no gays, what else? All those "evils" will be done away with. And without no outcry? No more beer or wine? How about going to the beach? What will Baha'i approved swimwear look like? What will women's clothes look like? If too much shows that won't be good. Even if bumps and curves show. Too much leg can't be allowed. Yeah, those are going to be interesting times.

My understanding is firstly being a Baha’i is voluntary and other non Baha’i societies will exist with their own laws just like the different nations do today.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We've all done our research. And most of us here kind of know what Baha'is believe and why they believe it. But other believers in other religions have done their research too, and they also know why they believe what they do. They are just as sure as any Baha'i that they beliefs are true.

What's troubling is that it seems like Baha'is can't bring people together, because they themselves have religious beliefs that separate and divide. You know your stuff is true. And somebody else knows the stuff from their religion is true. What are Baha'is going to do about that? It is obvious. The Baha'i Faith is right, and the other religion has interpreted their Scriptures incorrectly. Well, that's just swell. Accept the person in that other religion believe your religion is false. And neither one of you wants to give in. Ah, but Baha'is, because they "know" they have the truth, believe that one day those other people in these other religions will see the light and realize that Baha'u'llah is the truth. So, it is the other person that must give in.

We each just go our own way. People each choose which path they wish to walk along. Freedom of belief or non belief is a part of life.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you think, like @loverofhumanity does, (Post 4140) that you and he must be more worthy than others and that is why you recognised Baha'u'llah?

Extremely fortunate and lucky more like it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It sort of sounds like you personally don't think that you need to be worthy, but then you go on and seem to be saying that something that you did or and attitude you have may be the reason and the reason others have not seen is caused by their acts alone.
Sorry, those things are not what you said but what the quote from Baha'u'llah said.
If Baha'u'llah said that then it is no wonder that @loverofhumanity thinks that Baha'is are more worthy.
Do you think that is a fruit that Baha'u'llah has produced in his followers through his teachings?
I'm sorry that sounds so bad but of course I did not realise this would come out as being what Baha'u'llah teaches his followers.

In truth we each don’t know why we have been so lucky. Certainly none of us consider ourselves anything but unworthy of this bounty and blessing. Something we did? That is stated by the Prophet. When I look back on my life I cannot see anything I’ve done so good. I see my faults and failings.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That's OK and I wish you all the best.

Regards Tony

Then stop claiming a we that is not there. That we is not the best for me. That is the best for you and thus it must be the best for me. It is not the best for me. So all the best you wish me, is the best for you.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I was not, I addressed the statement made by CG, to CG, you did not need to respond.

Regards Tony

Yet you speak for the we.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes for myself only. For you your answer is right.

No, not really because there really is only one God for us all and one humanity for us all, and that is your version.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No, not really because there really is only one God for us all and one humanity for us all, and that is your version.

I believe also there is only one God the same God. I don’t know what you mean by version. All the religions as far as I know speak of the same one God.

 

[Vinayaka]

Or it's cultural appropriation when the titles given are from another group's scripture?

Yes, that could be, and it could also be plagiarism.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I believe also there is only one God the same God. I don’t know what you mean by version. All the religions as far as I know speak of the same one God.

I know it differently.

 

[Brian2]

In truth we each don’t know why we have been so lucky. Certainly none of us consider ourselves anything but unworthy of this bounty and blessing. Something we did? That is stated by the Prophet. When I look back on my life I cannot see anything I’ve done so good. I see my faults and failings.

Well that attitude is good. However I did not like what you said that sounded like you were saying that you were somehow more worthy than other people and that is why you ended up being a Baha'i.
It sounds like that is what Baha'u'llah does teach however so I can see where you might have got that idea from and I can imagine that it might have a detrimental effect on your humility if you actually started to believe it.
On the other hand if you are a Christian as you say then you should not kick yourself too hard for past misdeeds, accept the forgiveness that Jesus earned for us through His death on the cross.

 

[LuisDantas]

The category of people who might see homosexual act as wrong in God's eyes but who have nothing against gay people.

That does not make a lot of sense.

"You are ok, even if the creator of existence itself disapproves of who you are."

Really?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well that attitude is good. However I did not like what you said that sounded like you were saying that you were somehow more worthy than other people and that is why you ended up being a Baha'i.
It sounds like that is what Baha'u'llah does teach however so I can see where you might have got that idea from and I can imagine that it might have a detrimental effect on your humility if you actually started to believe it.
On the other hand if you are a Christian as you say then you should not kick yourself too hard for past misdeeds, accept the forgiveness that Jesus earned for us through His death on the cross.

Maybe my wording wasn’t clear. I’ve never ever believed myself better than others in any way. With regards to belief, I have always considered myself unworthy to receive God in my heart.

Baha’u’llah in English means the ‘Glory of God’ and I believe that in the Bible it is referring to Baha’u’llah. All Baha’is believe Him to be Christ returned in the glory of the Father. So we Baha’is rejoice that He has come and feel very humbled to know this.

 

[Vinayaka]

Maybe my wording wasn’t clear. I’ve never ever believed myself better than others in any way. With regards to belief, I have always considered myself unworthy to receive God in my heart.

Baha’u’llah in English means the ‘Glory of God’ and I believe that in the Bible it is referring to Baha’u’llah. All Baha’is believe Him to be Christ returned in the glory of the Father. So we Baha’is rejoice that He has come and feel very humbled to know this.

And by making that proclamation, create disharmony between Baha'is and Christians. Actions speak louder that words.

 

[dybmh]

Does science support the Baha'i belief that homosexuality is abnormal and must be condemned?

I'm not sure that science will take a position on abnormality and condemnation. However it should be able to show whether or not homosexuality destabilizes society. This is the reason repeatedly given ( I think by the supposedly infallible Abdul'Baha ). Showing that Abdul'Baha is not infallible and does not reflect the science of homosexuality shows that Baha'u'llah is not infallible and then the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

 

[dybmh]

And that how it goes. And I know that you know this, but it's meant for the Baha'is. Christians say they know the real interpretation of the Jewish Scriptures. Then Islam knows the real interpretation of the Christian Scriptures. And Baha'i know the truth about all the Scriptures. Baha'u'llah is the Kalki to the Hindus, Maitreya to the Buddhists, the Messiah to the Jews, the Christ to the Christians and whoever is expected by the Muslims, which I think might be Jesus. But Baha'u'llah is the promised return of all of them. And since he doesn't fit the descriptions of any of them, the Baha'is tell us how to properly interpret all the prophesies and promises to make them fit.

IMO, the reinterpretation of scripture and the uncompromising attitude is, more than anything, simply rude and arrogant.

But taking on a culture's names and titles goes one step further into appropriation. It's in the same catagory as a someone who names their child Shmuely ( a Jewish name ) and then claims a family connection to Judaism because of it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The category of people who might see homosexual act as wrong in God's eyes but who have nothing against gay people.

You're probably aware by now that most (all in this thread) non-Abrahamics consider that homophobia, but that those who feel like you do deny that there is any harm done to gays by this doctrine, because the Abrahamics don't feel hatred for gays and don't go out of their ways to harm them, so where's the bigotry, they ask?

Christianity has based its belief on the Resurrection instead of the power of Jesus to transform lives. And that is keeping them from recognising Baha’u’llah because they are so attached to the symbolic story as a literal one

That's their leverage - a literal resurrection. They need there to be original sin, free will, literal damnation, and a living savior that survived death on the cross and ascended to heaven. You take that away from Christianity, and what is left? Why be a Christian if none of that is true? For that matter, why be a Baha'i, even if one agrees with its world peace message? Humanism promotes the same without gods or faith-based beliefs, but also promotes reason over faith, and contains no homophobia. Why would a humanist make the switch over to Baha'ism when he already has its best parts with none of its worst parts?

Science can never prove God to be wrong otherwise He would not be God.

We've never heard from any god, just human beings claiming to speak for one. And those humans have been shown to be wrong frequently. Science and empiricists in general aren't thinking about gods or trying to prove any religion's scriptures right or wrong. They're just looking at nature, trying to discover its regular patterns. It sees no gods, its answers have never required gods, and inserting gods into scientific theories gives them unnecessary complexity without adding any explanatory or predictive power, so why would that notion even come up in science?

Notice how well your comment works with any nonexistent entity, like Santa Claus or leprechauns. Science can never prove leprechauns wrong, otherwise they would not be leprechauns. That's true for your religion as well. It will never prove that leprechauns don't exist.

I have enough proof and evidence for myself that convinces me otherwise.

That's great, but you probably know that critical thinkers aren't interested in what others believe, just what they know and can demonstrate to be correct, since being correct is connected to empiricism (evidence), and empiricists are only interested in demonstrably correct beliefs. What you have are beliefs that you have accepted by faith, and so naturally, you have nothing to show others who are uninterested in faith-based beliefs.

I have already answered that what the Manifestation says is truth whether people agree with it or not and that in time science will confirm it.

Yes, and you've also made it clear what you consider truth to be - anything you believe. And you've made it clear how you come to those beliefs - you read it in a holy books, which is why such beliefs are not considered truth to the empiricist.

The credibility of the Faith is done no damage by criticism I assure you. Criticism and slander only serve to spread it further.

Does that mean that you see this thread as a net plus for advancing Baha'ism? How do you think the half-dozen or so non-Baha'i who have posted here feel about your faith and its teachings relative to before all this criticism and slander?

There won’t be any gambling casinos or strip clubs or alcohol served in Baha’i societies of the future and homosexuality will not be promoted as a way of life.

I like your euphemism for unacceptable - won't be promoted. Nobody promotes homosexuality, just tolerance of it, just as the pro-choice people aren't promoting abortion. And it's telling that you group it with vices. Are you also going to tell the thread that you make no negative moral judgments against gambling, nudity, or alcohol consumption, perhaps adding that you don't hate people who engage in such activities and that you treat them as equals? That would also be not credible, even if you believed it.

We are creating a new world based on Baha’u’llah’s teachings.

Really? Where? I don't see where you've broken ground yet. I also don't see a plan - just claims like that one.

 

[dybmh]

any persons faith is naught but a gift

This is contradicted by the quote from Baha'u'llah you provided.

Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognising the truth of this Revelation.

Those who have been guided "have performed some deed". That's not a gift, it's a reward for the deed performed.

Those who have been deprived, "their acts alone have hindered them". They're deprived not because they declined the gift, but because their actions prevented it.

The quote does not describe a gift, it's clearly quid-pro-quo.

 

[CG Didymus]

As to control we don’t have clergy.

But you have elected and appointed people to guide and lead the affairs of Baha'is.

 

[dybmh]

All the religions as far as I know speak of the same one God.

Correction:

All the religions speak of the same one God, if one drastically re-writes their scripture forcing that to be the case.