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Homosexuality and religious.

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Are you intent on proselytising your views? To answer, if one does not speak to one's own self, there is automatically a we, we are discussing individual frames of references.

Your view are not my views, but in this world, bot views have ramifications to the whole.

Regards Tony

Correct and that works in both directions. You try to claim a we that is not there and that has ramifications for how I act. Can you understand that? The ramifications are for both of us in both directions.
You are digging down and I am digging down. So can we compromise?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I do not see it that way. I see that the gift is already available to all.

How is it that 50 to 60 years before the Bab and Baha'u'llah gave the Messages, there were people already with that gift?

They made a choice to open it. Does that make them more worthy of the gift, or is it just a more wise use of our given capacity?

So now fast forward to our age. The gift was given, it was given to all humanity, not just individuals. Some have chosen to see what it contained, does that make them more worthy, or was it just a choice they apartook of?

That is all a Baha'i does in teaching. Offer there is a gift still to be opened.

Yet, people have that choice, why do they not have a look? Is the package not the right size and shape, are they just not interested?

To me that is where the deed comes into play, one has to change something, to open that gift.

Regards Tony
The quote you brought did not describe a gift. But since you are determined to proceed with the gift analogy in spite of that, so be it. I think you're wrong to question, "why do they not have a look?" because people do have a look. It matters much more what happens on closer inspection.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
The quote you brought did not describe a gift. But since you are determined to proceed with the gift analogy in spite of that, so be it. I think you're wrong to question, "why do they not have a look?" because people do have a look. It matters much more what happens on closer inspection.

Well, I came late to that game and was already set in my ways about God. I accept the idea that we get better at God the more we look closer at how to do that. But anyone who says they have the correct answer and it can't be doubted I view as one way to God, but not one I do.
Said as a friendly atheist, who think there are some good reasons to believe in a God/Gods.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The quote you brought did not describe a gift. But since you are determined to proceed with the gift analogy in spite of that, so be it. I think you're wrong to question, "why do they not have a look?" because people do have a look. It matters much more what happens on closer inspection.

This is where I see our own actions and frames of references are important, we all have the same given capacities.

Rest assured I know myself and I am no one special, in fact way from it. It is just not a thought that comes into why I have Faith and is not a thought had when sharing Faith.

Regards Tony
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
To you it is. I have enough proof and evidence for myself that convinces me otherwise.
We don't care what you believe, as you have low standards. You are writing posts that only appeal to other believers. We are critical thinkers and we demand a high standard of evidence and explantion. Do you realize your standard is inadequate to convince critical thinkers?
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
We are going around in circles. I have already answered that what the Manifestation says is truth whether people agree with it or not and that in time science will confirm it.
Well if it is magical info from God then it would cite the date, right? Does it?

If the magical info knows science will confirm it then it should know the facts that science will use to confirm it. Why don't the texts just explain the facts and data?

Doesn't it strike you as odd that these texts are supposed to have absolute knowledge but can't manage to show us the science that humans will solve eventually?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
That does not make a lot of sense.

"You are ok, even if the creator of existence itself disapproves of who you are."

Really?

I am a heterosexual who sometimes sins by lusting. God disapproves of that lusting.
Isn't it the same with every single human being, we all have desires that lead to sinning in God's eyes.
It's not that hard to understand.
Are you saying that God disapproves of homosexual acts more than He does of lusting or of being angry for no good reason etc etc.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Maybe my wording wasn’t clear. I’ve never ever believed myself better than others in any way. With regards to belief, I have always considered myself unworthy to receive God in my heart.

Baha’u’llah in English means the ‘Glory of God’ and I believe that in the Bible it is referring to Baha’u’llah. All Baha’is believe Him to be Christ returned in the glory of the Father. So we Baha’is rejoice that He has come and feel very humbled to know this.

No I did not think that you felt better than others. The quote of Baha'u'llah from TransmutingSould does look as if Baha'u'llah says that Baha'is have been chosen because they are better and others rejected because they are not so good however.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
You're probably aware by now that most (all in this thread) non-Abrahamics consider that homophobia, but that those who feel like you do deny that there is any harm done to gays by this doctrine, because the Abrahamics don't feel hatred for gays and don't go out of their ways to harm them, so where's the bigotry, they ask?

I don't have the right to change what the Bible tells me.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Personally I was not even looking for God, but I can say, because of my nature and nurture, which saw many diverse religions and cultures at a young age, I had this thought that if there was a Christian God, then that God was most likely found in all faiths and that every culture was really searching for the same fulfillment.

Regards Tony

As a teenager when I first heard of Baha'i I thought how silly it was to think that all religions could join together when they all believed different things and so the gods of each religion had to be teaching different things.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
And by making that proclamation, create disharmony between Baha'is and Christians. Actions speak louder that words.

Not at all. In the Arabic Bible in the 19th century the word Baha’u’llah appeared many times. Baha’is are just believing in what the Bible says.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Not at all. In the Arabic Bible in the 19th century the word Baha’u’llah appeared many times. Baha’is are just believing in what the Bible says.

Do you believe Baha'u'llah entered the Temple at Jerusalem by way of East Gate and filled the Temple? or do you think that means that God entered the Temple in His glory?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
You're probably aware by now that most (all in this thread) non-Abrahamics consider that homophobia, but that those who feel like you do deny that there is any harm done to gays by this doctrine, because the Abrahamics don't feel hatred for gays and don't go out of their ways to harm them, so where's the bigotry, they ask?



That's their leverage - a literal resurrection. They need there to be original sin, free will, literal damnation, and a living savior that survived death on the cross and ascended to heaven. You take that away from Christianity, and what is left? Why be a Christian if none of that is true? For that matter, why be a Baha'i, even if one agrees with its world peace message? Humanism promotes the same without gods or faith-based beliefs, but also promotes reason over faith, and contains no homophobia. Why would a humanist make the switch over to Baha'ism when he already has its best parts with none of its worst parts?



We've never heard from any god, just human beings claiming to speak for one. And those humans have been shown to be wrong frequently. Science and empiricists in general aren't thinking about gods or trying to prove any religion's scriptures right or wrong. They're just looking at nature, trying to discover its regular patterns. It sees no gods, its answers have never required gods, and inserting gods into scientific theories gives them unnecessary complexity without adding any explanatory or predictive power, so why would that notion even come up in science?

Notice how well your comment works with any nonexistent entity, like Santa Claus or leprechauns. Science can never prove leprechauns wrong, otherwise they would not be leprechauns. That's true for your religion as well. It will never prove that leprechauns don't exist.



That's great, but you probably know that critical thinkers aren't interested in what others believe, just what they know and can demonstrate to be correct, since being correct is connected to empiricism (evidence), and empiricists are only interested in demonstrably correct beliefs. What you have are beliefs that you have accepted by faith, and so naturally, you have nothing to show others who are uninterested in faith-based beliefs.



Yes, and you've also made it clear what you consider truth to be - anything you believe. And you've made it clear how you come to those beliefs - you read it in a holy books, which is why such beliefs are not considered truth to the empiricist.



Does that mean that you see this thread as a net plus for advancing Baha'ism? How do you think the half-dozen or so non-Baha'i who have posted here feel about your faith and its teachings relative to before all this criticism and slander?



I like your euphemism for unacceptable - won't be promoted. Nobody promotes homosexuality, just tolerance of it, just as the pro-choice people aren't promoting abortion. And it's telling that you group it with vices. Are you also going to tell the thread that you make no negative moral judgments against gambling, nudity, or alcohol consumption, perhaps adding that you don't hate people who engage in such activities and that you treat them as equals? That would also be not credible, even if you believed it.



Really? Where? I don't see where you've broken ground yet. I also don't see a plan - just claims like that one.

I can’t resolve your objections as that is only something you can do. I was only able to find out what Baha’i was all about not from other Baha’is but from Baha’u’llah’s Words. I only argued and fought with other Baha’is and like yourself I thought my critical thinking outsmarted them and I was convinced I could prove them wrong.

Until I studied and reflected on the Words of Baha’u’llah. I then came to realise I was wrong and became a Baha’i. That was over about 3 years.

I’m just a very ordinary person and not good at posting and debating so it’s easy for people to think I’m an easy target. That’s why to get the essence of what is Baha’i I always suggest thoroughly reading the Words of Baha’u’llah.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
But you have elected and appointed people to guide and lead the affairs of Baha'is.

1. No individual has any power or authority in the Baha’i Faith as priests do?
2. Baha’is are forbidden to interpret scripture as priests do causing sects. We can only authoritatively refer for meanings to the Bab, Baha’u’llah, Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.
3. There is no paid priesthood profession in our Faith
4. The Faith is governed by bodies of 9 believers annually elected by believers except the House of Justice every 5 years.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Correction:

All the religions speak of the same one God, if one drastically re-writes their scripture forcing that to be the case.

So you don’t believe in the God of Abraham which Christians, Muslims and Baha’is believe in?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
So then, did the gospel writers know they were writing a fictional, not literal, story? And then there is when the gospel stories were written. Long after the event. So, these gospel writers got their information from somewhere, traditions and legends about a resurrected Jesus? Or were they the ones that concocted this great "test" to see if Christians would believe this phony resurrection story? Funny, but it worked. Christians ran with it and preached it and are still preaching it. And all the people that knew the truth, that the resurrection was not physical but symbolic, never corrected the error? Sorry, that to me is so unlikely. If the resurrection is not true, I'll go with they concocted the story to make Jesus a miracle working God/man. Which, since it is not true, makes Christianity a false religion.

Plus, Baha'is believe the resurrection is impossible and yet they believe that the virgin birth is possible. Why? Why not reject that too. What good does it do Baha'is? What scientific proof can you find that there has been any human that was born without having a father?

I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Baha’u’llah said that Christs greatest miracle was that He transformed individuals and the world not a circus act to perform stunts that really would have only been proof for this who were present. Like King Ashoka. After believing in Buddha he changed from a killer to a man of peace. That is the real miracle.

There are some things we take on trust because the Manifestation has proven Themselves. The Gospels, the Quran and Baha’i Writings all confirm a virgin birth. Today with artificial insemination a virgin can now give birth. So it’s not beyond the realm of possibility unlike rising from the dead after 3 days.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
So you don’t believe in the God of Abraham which Christians, Muslims and Baha’is believe in?
You said "all religions speak of the same one God". You need to expand out beyond Abrahamic religions. Read the DaoDeJing and compare it to the God of Abraham then let me know if they both beleive in the same one God.
 
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