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Homosexuality and religious.

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
And Baha'is are preaching to people that agree with them about the things written in the NT about Jesus. They never happened. They were made up. Original sin, Satan, hell, Jesus being God, God himself, walking on water... all of it gets eliminated, because it doesn't make sense. Yes, I can see that. Christianity made up all those things to get people to believe and follow their teachings and obey or risk being sent to hell and burn.

But then Baha'is have a different reason to not believe those stories. If all those things written are true, then their religion is false. Can't have that, so they invent a way to interpret those stories to make them not true, in a literal sense, that is to say they didn't really happen, but those stories were "symbolically" true. And they were a grand test to see if the followers of Jesus would believe him or the phony stories about him. That's incredibly wild. But Baha'is believe it.

Or it's whacked out interpretations and explanations of how the other religions are wrong that keep people from taking the Baha'i Faith seriously. Interpretations like these is why I don't believe the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation. To get Christianity into the progression, Baha'is make most every belief and doctrine of Christianity false.

No religion is false. I believe that one truth cannot contradict another truth so when we look at the interpretation which is not contradictory we find all religions are true. I never believed in Jesus so strongly as a Christian than I do as a Baha’i or Muhammad and the Quran. Or Buddha or Zoroaster. I treasure them all as I do my own faith.

Christianity itself teaches progressive revelation as it accepts all the Jewish Prophets and expects Christ to return. Same with Islam etc. There’s no need to reject Buddhism or Islam in order to accept Christ. We can accept each other’s religion as they all teach goodness and truth.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
We don't care what you believe, as you have low standards. You are writing posts that only appeal to other believers. We are critical thinkers and we demand a high standard of evidence and explantion. Do you realize your standard is inadequate to convince critical thinkers?

Yes I do realise that your critical thinking skills are what is turning you away from the truth - God - and that any system of human thought which turns man away from God is as low a standard as the animals like cows who only go by their senses and have no idea about higher intelligence yet they are content to just eat grass and think it’s all there is!!
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Well if it is magical info from God then it would cite the date, right? Does it?

If the magical info knows science will confirm it then it should know the facts that science will use to confirm it. Why don't the texts just explain the facts and data?

Doesn't it strike you as odd that these texts are supposed to have absolute knowledge but can't manage to show us the science that humans will solve eventually?

It’s a religion mainly about the relationship between man and God and each other.

There are a very few statements that are about things we could call scientific.

Like this one.

Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute.” — Bahá’u’lláh

Now we have no dates just that organisations like NASA are searching for extraterrestrial life. So what if there exists in the universe a ‘higher intelligence’ than us. Then couldn’t there also be a ultimate higher intelligence also - God?

I mean why would NASA spend perhaps billions searching for life if it’s not there? There’s no proof or evidence that there is extraterrestrial life it’s just a belief. So too God may exist, some just haven’t discovered Him yet.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
But you can't explain why it is rational to believe this. This is the fatal problem with your position as a Bahai.

Well dead bodies do not come alive after 3 days. Once we are dead and buried that’s it. I think that’s very rational and very irrational to believe that Christ’s Body came alive after being dead for 3 days. But after 3 days the disciples began to believe again and so Christianity rose.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
You said "all religions speak of the same one God". You need to expand out beyond Abrahamic religions. Read the DaoDeJing and compare it to the God of Abraham then let me know if they both beleive in the same one God.

My mistake. Apologies. I should have said major world religions.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I am a heterosexual who sometimes sins by lusting. God disapproves of that lusting.
Isn't it the same with every single human being, we all have desires that lead to sinning in God's eyes.
It's not that hard to understand.
Are you saying that God disapproves of homosexual acts more than He does of lusting or of being angry for no good reason etc etc.
No. I am saying that it makes no sense for a hypothetical creator of existence being to disapprove of homosexuality.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Do you believe Baha'u'llah entered the Temple at Jerusalem by way of East Gate and filled the Temple? or do you think that means that God entered the Temple in His glory?

Ezekiel 43:4

and the glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east.

In Baha’i history we have a similar process as did Christ. Before Christ He was heralded by a forerunner known as John the Baptist.

In the Baha’i Faith Baha’u’llah was heralded by a Prophet called the Bab which means gate. So in spiritual language it is saying that Baha’u’llah came through the Bab through a Herald.

Rev 21:23

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

I believe this is referring to Baha’u’llah. Also how many thousands of churches all over the world are dedicated the the Glory of God.

And in Revelation Christ says He will return with ‘new name’. Baha’is believe that Name is Baha’u’llah. Isaiah and Ezekiel prophesied and had visions of the ‘Glory of God’.

Baha’u’llah as the “Glory of His Father”
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
No. You should have said Abrahamic creeds.

Im not so sure about that. Christianity tries to claim uniqueness due to the resurrection and Buddhism that Buddha didn’t teach about God but although todays Buddhists will not be taught about God I don’t believe that was the case when Buddha walked the earth. But given 2,500 years and a lot can happen.

I believe all the Founders of all the religions initially taught about God. What is taught in many faiths today however is not what was originally taught. Buddhists pray to Buddha, Christians pray to Christ, Baha’is pray to Baha’u’llah. To me it’s all appealing to a higher Reality whatever we choose to call it or not call it.

This prayer to Buddha sounds very much like Baha’i, Christian and Muslim prayers except the Word Buddha is used instead of God.

https://www.nantien.org.au/en/sites/default/files/2017-10/prayer_upon_arising_in_the_morning.pdf
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Im not so sure about that. Christianity tries to claim uniqueness due to the resurrection and Buddhism that Buddha didn’t teach about God but although todays Buddhists will not be taught about God I don’t believe that was the case when Buddha walked the earth. But given 2,500 years and a lot can happen.

I believe all the Founders of all the religions initially taught about God. What is taught in many faiths today however is not what was originally taught. Buddhists pray to Buddha, Christians pray to Christ, Baha’is pray to Baha’u’llah. To me it’s all appealing to a higher Reality whatever we choose to call it or not call it.

This prayer to Buddha sounds very much like Baha’i, Christian and Muslim prayers except the Word Buddha is used instead of God.

https://www.nantien.org.au/en/sites/default/files/2017-10/prayer_upon_arising_in_the_morning.pdf
As it happens, I am quite sure about what I just said.

Attempting to reinterpret major religions through Abrahamic expectations is... not advisable at all, for far too many reasons.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
As a teenager when I first heard of Baha'i I thought how silly it was to think that all religions could join together when they all believed different things and so the gods of each religion had to be teaching different things.

Most likely, that would be a reason one would not embrace Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
This is where I see our own actions and frames of references are important, we all have the same given capacities.

Rest assured I know myself and I am no one special, in fact way from it. It is just not a thought that comes into why I have Faith and is not a thought had when sharing Faith.

Regards Tony

It is not a fact that we all are given the same capacities.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
It is not a fact that we all are given the same capacities.

Well in what Baha'u'llah offered, there is the possibility that we do have the same spiritual capacities, it is obvious in this world, we are all at different stages in our journey.

"O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty."

"O Son of Spirit! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I moulded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting." Bahá’u’lláh

There are many hidden words that offer, as the Bible does, that those capacities are within us all.

Regards Tony

 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No. I am saying that it makes no sense for a hypothetical creator of existence being to disapprove of homosexuality.

And that would be because the creator created homosexuals I suppose. But the creator created all of us and as I said we all have desires which go against the will of God.
If you have read the Genesis story of Adam and Eve then you have some idea of what happened and why we ended up with all these desires and feelings that we did not know how to control or say no to.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Well in what Baha'u'llah offered, there is the possibility that we do have the same spiritual capacities, it is obvious in this world, we are all at different stages in our journey.

"O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty."

"O Son of Spirit! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I moulded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting." Bahá’u’lláh

There are many hidden words that offer, as the Bible does, that those capacities are within us all.

Regards Tony

Well, so a person with a functionally different cognition and emotional set of coping skills, are in the end the same as you, because you say so.
That is not science to me.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Not at all. In the Arabic Bible in the 19th century the word Baha’u’llah appeared many times. Baha’is are just believing in what the Bible says.
You avoided the assessment that it causes division. Are you saying that all the Christians now accept Baha'u'llah? Side-stepping a discussion also causes division.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
And that would be because the creator created homosexuals I suppose.

That is one reason, indeed.

There is also the matter of how worth of attention a homophobic god is supposed to be. Not very much, I would think.


But the creator created all of us and as I said we all have desires which go against the will of God.

I suppose that technically that might be true. All the same, I can't find it in me to care about such an odd deity even if I knew for a fact that it somehow existed.


If you have read the Genesis story of Adam and Eve then you have some idea of what happened and why we ended up with all these desires and feelings that we did not know how to control or say no to.

I honestly doubt that those stories were ever meant to be taken that seriously.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am a heterosexual who sometimes sins by lusting. God disapproves of that lusting. Isn't it the same with every single human being, we all have desires that lead to sinning in God's eyes.

No, it's not the same with me. I never sin, because the word has no literal, religious meaning to me. I experience lust as well, but there is no sense of sin or guilt associated with it. Nobody is judging that but me, and I judge it a healthy instinct, and never demean myself for having the experience.

I don't have the right to change what the Bible tells me.

Not the words, just their meanings. That's done every day. How else is it possible to have so many diverse denominations calling themselves Christianity and pointing to the same book?

But the creator created all of us and as I said we all have desires which go against the will of God.

That wouldn't make sense if man were created by a tri-omni god. That god would create creatures that pleased it. Reading that does, however, make sense in a world not ruled by over by a god in which men with no such direct power over the behavior of others were calling the shots of what will be deemed sin for the purpose of directing behavior using such stories. I often comment on how many enigmas just vanish when one assumes a godless universe in which the cosmos including life and mind evolved naturalistically.

like yourself I thought my critical thinking outsmarted them and I was convinced I could prove them wrong.

One cannot teach a faith-based thinker that he is wrong about what he has chosen to believe by faith even using evidence and sound argument that demonstrate that he is wrong. If you didn't know that then, certainly you do by now.

to get the essence of what is Baha’i I always suggest thoroughly reading the Words of Baha’u’llah.

I use a different method for any religion or ism of any kind. What are the fruits of this religion? A better assessment of the faith is an examination of its adherents, not its holy books - who does it appeal to and how does it manifest. The holy book doesn't matter. The Christian Bible says love one another. If you want to understand that religion, look at the adherents, not the book, and you'll learn something about what love means in Christianity that you could never discern from the scriptures.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Gospels, the Quran and Baha’i Writings all confirm a virgin birth. Today with artificial insemination a virgin can now give birth.

None confirm a virgin birth. They claim it without sufficient evidence to justify belief. It's never a good idea to bring modern science in to support biblical scripture without a good knowledge of the science. The biblical story involves only DNA donor. We have a parallel in the bees, whose diploid queens generate haploid males through virgin birth (parthenogenesis). IVF produces diploid offspring, and is antithetical to the biblical meaning of human virgin birth, which means with no human father, not with no sex.

I believe that one truth cannot contradict another truth so when we look at the interpretation which is not contradictory we find all religions are true.

That's a statement of motivated reasoning, sometimes called rationalization: "Motivated reasoning is the phenomenon in cognitive science and social psychology in which emotional biases lead to justifications or decisions based on their desirability rather than an accurate reflection of the evidence." You're essentially saying that you expect by faith for these religions to support one another without contradiction, and that when you do with that mindset, that's what you see. This is really what all believers want of all skeptics when they accuse the latter of materialism, scientism, closed-mindedness, willful blindness, or whatever. It's a plea to relax critical standards for deciding truth in order to believe what reason doesn't support. The believer sees that as opening one's heart. The skeptic sees it as the quickest path to acquiring untrue ideas.

Yes I do realise that your critical thinking skills are what is turning you away from the truth - God - and that any system of human thought which turns man away from God is as low a standard as the animals

You recommend faith, which is the only path to theism. That is the predecessor to critical thought, which holds a much higher standard for truth than faith. The animals are like the preverbal infant, and use the same standard for belief - how things appear. A little later he reaches the verbal stage, and can be instructed by his parents using words that, lacking critical thinking skills, he believes by faith. It is at this time that he is most likely to be made a theist, a fact not lost on the church in its effort to put prayer and creationism back into public grade schools. Because they know that once this child learns to think for himself at university, if he's not a believer yet, he probably never will be. The Jehovah's Witnesses understand this, and pressure their adherents to NOT let their kids go away to school after graduation.

Well dead bodies do not come alive after 3 days. Once we are dead and buried that’s it.

The Christians say that corpses can revivify if God wills it. I'm with you on this one, but then I decide what's true differently than you do. Is your god the Christian god? Isn't that what's implied by saying that all of the religions are correct? If so, why the discrepancy here about what it can or will do?

Baha’is pray to Baha’u’llah.

Does this mean that they believe that Baha'u'llah is risen and is presently their intercessor?
 
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