Homosexuality and religious.

[Vinayaka]

People can have different beliefs and still be friends.

For sure, but nobody likes being told that their religious views are wrong. It's also not fun to hang out with people that seem to have no other life than their religion. That can also be a hobby or other interest. It makes for a very narrow conversation. For example, the other day, I asked if you ever got to the sea, and there was no response. In threads here on RF, you rarely see people of the Baha'i faith participating in any other threads that have nothing to do with their faith. It's all about Baha'i, and nothing else. But that's common in groups whose singular focus is their religion and how to promote it.

 

[dybmh]

My mistake. Apologies. I should have said major world religions.

Daoism appears to be larger than both Judaism and Baha'i.

Major religious groups - Wikipedia

 

[Vinayaka]

My mistake. Apologies. I should have said major world religions.

Hinduism isn't a major world religion then, according to Baha'i. Good to know.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes I do realise that your critical thinking skills are what is turning you away from the truth - God - and that any system of human thought which turns man away from God is as low a standard as the animals like cows who only go by their senses and have no idea about higher intelligence yet they are content to just eat grass and think it’s all there is!!

Wait a minute, so we should forego the use of our brains and just act like mindless animals and then we can find God? That sounds very Kirk Cameron-esque.
Why did your God give us these fantastic brains if we aren't supposed to use them?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, so a person with a functionally different cognition and emotional set of coping skills, are in the end the same as you, because you say so.
That is not science to me.

I can offer that Baha'u'llah has covered all these questions, and to me this answers your observation, to me our oneness is scientific, our diversity of capacity is also explained, but I thought it wise not to offer those explanations in any detail, but maybe you would like to discuss that?

"OCHILDREN OF MEN! Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory." Bahá’u’lláh

There are many quotes as to why our capacity of comprehensive ability varies, but that diversity of capacity does not negate that we are One as a human race, a body of humanity.

Here are a couple of thoughts.

"And now, concerning thy question regarding the creation of man. Know thou that all men have been created in the nature made by God, the Guardian, the Self-Subsisting. Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God's mighty and guarded Tablets." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 149

So we are all created of the one substance, but there is a pre-ordained measure, but the important thing here is how we go about balancing that in this world and this is a thought.

" Let none, therefore, consider the largeness or smallness of the receptacle. The portion of some might lie in the palm of a man's hand, the portion of others might fill a cup, and of others even a gallon-measure." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 8

Spoiler: Capacity Quotes

Capacity | Bahá’í Quotes

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

Well dead bodies do not come alive after 3 days. Once we are dead and buried that’s it. I think that’s very rational and very irrational to believe that Christ’s Body came alive after being dead for 3 days. But after 3 days the disciples began to believe again and so Christianity rose.

So you don't believe a God exists that can do miracles?

It’s a religion mainly about the relationship between man and God and each other.

Humans exist. No Gods are known to exist, so in what way is there a relationship between real mortals and a God that no mortal can sense or confirm exists? How does that differe from an imaginary friend? And please don't cite religious belief, offer a real, genuine answer.

There are a very few statements that are about things we could call scientific.

And that is odd for a Messenger that supposedly has all the knowledge of the universe. The writings are no more scientifically complicated than the time Baha'u'llah existed. That's suspicious.

Like this one.

Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute.” — Bahá’u’lláh

Really, does every fixed star actually have planets? And let's note that nothing in the universe is really fixed, as the universe is expanding, and at a faster rate as time goes on. And only earth has creatures, as there are none on Jupiter, Saturn, Mars, etc., so he is wrong.

Now we have no dates just that organisations like NASA are searching for extraterrestrial life. So what if there exists in the universe a ‘higher intelligence’ than us. Then couldn’t there also be a ultimate higher intelligence also - God?

There's likely other life in the universe that has higher intelligence than humans, but no Gods that we can detect, so they don't count.

But you seem to admit that NASA is more knowledgable than your God, assuming it exists, which you don;t know for sure. It's better to worship Einstien and Sagan than your God, as they were very smart and have the adv antage of having actually existed.

I mean why would NASA spend perhaps billions searching for life if it’s not there?

The real answer is that we are capable of the search, and so we do the work even if the results are negative. The honest answer is that we have found no other life anywhere. We have found planets thay might have life.

There’s no proof or evidence that there is extraterrestrial life it’s just a belief. So too God may exist, some just haven’t discovered Him yet.

Bad analogy. We know very well what life is and what makes up the reality of life in this hostile universe. Thus far all we have of Gods is many different concepts that are inconsistent with science and reality. No one can even form a plausible description of what a God would be IF found. So your claim (some haven't discovered Him yet) is incoherent and false. Is it really a boy God? How would you know? Reading texts that you assume are true, so no credible evidence?

Are you claiming you found this God, yet science can't? What makes you some special vessel of perception and intelligence that you are magically capable of detecting God but the entire scientific community fails?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I can offer that Baha'u'llah has covered all these questions, and to me this answers your observation, to me our oneness is scientific, our diversity of capacity is also explained, but I thought it wise not to offer those explanations in any detail, but maybe you would like to discuss that?

"OCHILDREN OF MEN! Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory." Bahá’u’lláh

There are many quotes as to why our capacity of comprehensive ability varies, but that diversity of capacity does not negate that we are One as a human race, a body of humanity.

Here are a couple of thoughts.

"And now, concerning thy question regarding the creation of man. Know thou that all men have been created in the nature made by God, the Guardian, the Self-Subsisting. Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God's mighty and guarded Tablets." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 149

So we are all created of the one substance, but there is a pre-ordained measure, but the important thing here is how we go about balancing that in this world and this is a thought.

" Let none, therefore, consider the largeness or smallness of the receptacle. The portion of some might lie in the palm of a man's hand, the portion of others might fill a cup, and of others even a gallon-measure." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 8

Spoiler: Capacity Quotes

Capacity | Bahá’í Quotes

Regards Tony

That is not science to me.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is not science to me.

Then I was correct to be silent and a fool to offer more.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Wait a minute, so we should forego the use of our brains and just act like mindless animals and then we can find God? That sounds very Kirk Cameron-esque.
Why did your God give us these fantastic brains if we aren't supposed to use them?

It sure makes life easy when you don't have to think.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It sure makes life easy when you don't have to think.

Or doubt yourself.

 

[Vinayaka]

Or doubt yourself.

But, but but ... the life on other planets ... every single one of them, is different than what we know as life here. And anybody who may have tried changing copper to gold by burying it for 70 years just didn't do it the prescribed way. (There is no point at all in discussing with people whose world view is as hard and fixed as concrete. They are right, and you are wrong. End of story. Ahh...it fascinates me.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So you don't believe a God exists that can do miracles?

It's funny, but I like Spinoza's thinking on this issue. Spinoza believed that God's majesty would be diminished by the idea that things might have been different, and the belief in miracles does no credit at all to God. What on earth need has God to intervene and change events that he originated? The laws of the universe must be universally binding if we are to understand them, and surely God could not have meant us to be forever ignorant of our situation. Thus, our search for the truth, generally through science, is our only yardstick.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I can offer that Baha'u'llah has covered all these questions, and to me this answers your observation, to me our oneness is scientific, our diversity of capacity is also explained, but I thought it wise not to offer those explanations in any detail, but maybe you would like to discuss that?

"OCHILDREN OF MEN! Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory." Bahá’u’lláh

There are many quotes as to why our capacity of comprehensive ability varies, but that diversity of capacity does not negate that we are One as a human race, a body of humanity.

Here are a couple of thoughts.

"And now, concerning thy question regarding the creation of man. Know thou that all men have been created in the nature made by God, the Guardian, the Self-Subsisting. Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God's mighty and guarded Tablets." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 149

So we are all created of the one substance, but there is a pre-ordained measure, but the important thing here is how we go about balancing that in this world and this is a thought.

" Let none, therefore, consider the largeness or smallness of the receptacle. The portion of some might lie in the palm of a man's hand, the portion of others might fill a cup, and of others even a gallon-measure." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 8

I suppose you see wisdom here because it comes from Baha'u'llah. What is he actually saying? What is the counsel in the first paragraph to which the author refers that needs heeding? Ponder how you were created? Yes, we know that human beings have much in common with one another - made of the same substance and roughly the same shape, most living in the same place and time as others. I find no substance there. There are no ideas not self-evident except the religious parts, which add nothing. All of those things are true for the atheist as well once the religious adornments are removed. It's the basis for secular egalitarianism. It's the basis for saying that no man is above the law.

Unfortunately, it seems that homosexuals are left out of the equality thing. But everybody else that is made of the same dust and has four limbs and a mouth can be part of the one soul thing.

And then, there are the differences in talents and capabilities, also self-evident. You said, "our diversity of capacity is also explained." Where was the explanation? The theory of biological evolution does both of these better, with actual mechanisms provided to account for the commonality inherent in the tree of life - we all descended from a common ancestor - and the diversity - nature generates genetic diversity, environments evolve, and living things adapt to them. Now there's an explanation for biological diversity.

If intelligence is knowing how to get what you want, wisdom is knowing what to want to achieve one's long-term goals. An intelligent fool may succeed in accomplishing his short-term goals (wealth, fame, power, glitzy wife, wealth) just to discover later that they don't satisfy. He was intelligent but unwise. If that is a reasonable definition of wisdom to you, where is the wisdom here? Or, if you mean something else, what is it you mean by wisdom, and how does this rise to that?

Then I was correct to be silent and a fool to offer more.

If your purpose was to explain anything, then yes, you would have been better being silent, since you did not do that. If your purpose was to inform people that Baha'u'llah came to the same self-evident conclusions that they all did independently, then you succeeded. That's what I took home. Bahaullah recognized a commonality and diversity withing the human race, and nobody is better than anybody else. These sentiments are embedded in the US Constitution, a secular document older than Baha'u'llah, which implies that we all have a different concept of happiness that we pursue.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I suppose you see wisdom here because it comes from Baha'u'llah. What is he actually saying?

One can find that out for themselves.

A lot of conclusions were made in your reply based on two small quotes.

There is over 100 volumes to purse.

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

One can find that out for themselves.

And we critical thinkers are doing just that, and explaining our assessments in these posts. You don't seem willing or capable of responding to criticisms which suggests we are correct about Bahai not being magical nor derived from any divine. It appears that Bahai believers have a low standard and this better explains why you are impressed.

A lot of conclusions were made in your reply based on two small quotes.

There is over 100 volumes to purse.

Many dozens of quotes have been offered to we heathens and for me none suggest any divine message. If you Bahai are impressed you have not done a good job explaining why. The essence of your belief is that you believe because you wanted to believe.

 

[Vinayaka]

And we critical thinkers are doing just that, and explaining our assessments in these posts. You don't seem willing or capable of responding to criticisms which suggests we are correct about Bahai not being magical nor derived from any divine. It appears that Bahai believers have a low standard and this better explains why you are impressed.


Many dozens of quotes have been offered to we heathens and for me none suggest any divine message. If you Bahai are impressed you have not done a good job explaining why. The essence of your belief is that you believe because you wanted to believe.

To the newcomer's credit in this conversation, they at least do read the quotes. I stopped reading Bahai quotes some time back after reading so many, and not getting past the flowery self-aggrandizing language, or just not getting the point at all. I know of no other faith group that relies on quotes as much as the Baha'i do, and often off topic quotes at that. There have been Islamic scholars who have gone through the entirety of published Baha'i scripture. What a tedious task that must have been.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And we critical thinkers are doing just that, and explaining our assessments in these posts. You don't seem willing or capable of responding to criticisms which suggests we are correct about Bahai not being magical nor derived from any divine. It appears that Bahai believers have a low standard and this better explains why you are impressed.

That is exactly why I will not further explain and just so you are aware, we been advised not to reply to those that reject the Spiritual side of their own selves.

It is to our shame we are not able to follow that advice, not yours.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

No, it's not the same with me. I never sin, because the word has no literal, religious meaning to me. I experience lust as well, but there is no sense of sin or guilt associated with it. Nobody is judging that but me, and I judge it a healthy instinct, and never demean myself for having the experience.



Not the words, just their meanings. That's done every day. How else is it possible to have so many diverse denominations calling themselves Christianity and pointing to the same book?



That wouldn't make sense if man were created by a tri-omni god. That god would create creatures that pleased it. Reading that does, however, make sense in a world not ruled by over by a god in which men with no such direct power over the behavior of others were calling the shots of what will be deemed sin for the purpose of directing behavior using such stories. I often comment on how many enigmas just vanish when one assumes a godless universe in which the cosmos including life and mind evolved naturalistically.



One cannot teach a faith-based thinker that he is wrong about what he has chosen to believe by faith even using evidence and sound argument that demonstrate that he is wrong. If you didn't know that then, certainly you do by now.



I use a different method for any religion or ism of any kind. What are the fruits of this religion? A better assessment of the faith is an examination of its adherents, not its holy books - who does it appeal to and how does it manifest. The holy book doesn't matter. The Christian Bible says love one another. If you want to understand that religion, look at the adherents, not the book, and you'll learn something about what love means in Christianity that you could never discern from the scriptures.

That’s where people get misled because upon which believers does one determine the truth? If one looks at the good believers then the religion is good but if at the not so good ones then the religion is wrong?

The standard being set is what should be looked at. For example, Islam is a religion of peace. The Quran teaches to return love for hate. Yet if one base one’s views of Islam upon extremists one will have a distorted view of it. It’s true the followers should be setting the example but if they do not then it is not the fault of the religion but disobedience to it which is the problem.

So if one never studies the holy texts one will never know what is the standard being set as followers vary in their level of obedience. Depending on the behaviour of followers for accurate information is misleading but the scriptures remain the same and are the main point of reference I believe one should turn to to determine the truth.

 

[F1fan]

That is exactly why I will not further explain and just so you are aware,

If anything we are more aware that the texts are mundane and there is a prejudical elemnet to the relgion. We have asked how belief in this religion is reasonable, and the answers fell short. So the next questions were why a person would believe when it isn't reasonable and even that was unsatisfactory. I have no real clue why any of you have decided to follow it.

we been advised not to reply to those that reject the Spiritual side of their own selves.

I don't see much spiritual in belief in dogmas. And if you had strong spirits I would expect believers to easily withstand all sorts of critique and questioning. It seems believers have realized the weaknesses in Bahai and struggling to maintain a coherent defense. I suspect even a bit of crisis of faith.

It is to our shame we are not able to follow that advice, not yours.

What shame is there to have beliefs and attempt to expalin and defend them in open debate? If theists are correct in their beliefs then they will easily prevail in debates. We see religions have many flaws and errors, and believers all struggle to defend belief in them.

 

[Vinayaka]

So if one never studies the holy texts one will never know what is the standard being set as followers vary in their level of obedience. Depending on the behaviour of followers for accurate information is misleading but the scriptures remain the same and are the main point of reference I believe one should turn to to determine the truth.

There are several challenges with this. The first is that some scriptures are not comprehendible. Many have lamented about the Christian bible. I tried myself, and couldn't make head nor tail of it. The Quran is in Arabic, and the Baha's stuff is so full of flowery language and repetition, it makes for a difficult read.

There is another scripture called thinking and common sense, and those are available to everyone, anywhere. As far as levels of obedience goes, I don't see any variance in the Baha'i folks I've encountered on here. it seems like an echo chamber to me. Most people don't need scripture to tell them murder is wrong, or homophobia is wrong.

Another challenge is: What if the scripture is just plain wrong or doesn't go by facts?