Homosexuality and religious.

[Goldemar]

Does the Baha'i Faith support people that live openly gay lifestyles? I don't think so. Is the Baha'i Faith promoting homophobic attitudes? No, unless you think saying it is unnatural and people with homosexual feelings should seek help to correct their condition?

In a letter dated March 26,1950, written on his behalf, Shoghi Effendi, the authorized interpreter of the Bahá'í Teachings, further explicates the Bahá'í attitude toward homosexuality. It should be noted that the Guardian's interpretation of this subject is based on his infallible understanding of the Texts. It represents both a statement of moral principle and unerring guidance to Bahá'ís who are homosexuals. The letter states: "No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá'u'lláh, and homosexual relationships He looks upon as such, besides being against nature.

"To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap."
​

Is there any religion, though, that says God is okay with homosexuality? Wait a minute, there's 19 pages about this already? Never mind. I'm sure somebody has already brought this up.

In my religion, God has no problem with homosexuality.

 

[danieldemol]

I am.

Are you aware that that would be perceived by the Baha'i leadership as support for their laws including the eventual fines for adulterers?

In my opinion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Are you aware that that would be perceived by the Baha'i leadership as support for their laws including the eventual fines for adulterers?

In my opinion.

That is their choice if the believe that

 

[danieldemol]

That is their choice if the believe that

Would it not be a reasonable inference on their behalf? They don't follow your individual posts on RF and won't know you dont support their rules unless you make it explicitly clear to them.

I'm not saying the Baha'i faith is comparable to the Nazi party, but if the Nazi party said, "in the future when our membership gets high enough we are going to start killing Jews", would you really want to continue membership in the Nazi party if you didn't agree to killing Jews?

Likewise with the Baha'i faith membership, they have said that in a future state of society (by which they mean when membership numbers are high enough) they are going to start handing out fines to adulterers. Does it really make sense to be a member of such an organisation if that is not what you want to happen?

In my opinion.

 

[Brian2]

You were talking in general terms.
You literally said that if your moral judgement doesn't agree with the moral judgement of your perceived authority, that you'll ignore your own judgement and go with the one from the authority instead, even though you don't understand that judgement.

I said that if I did not understand that I would still go with the morality of my God.

God in your bible says to kill homosexuals who engage in homosexual sex.
God in your bible says to kill witches.
God in your bible says to kill disobedient children.
God in your bible condones and regulates slavery.

Yes God wanted to set up a society that was morally pure in many ways and the laws were a way to achieve that. And yes slavery was condoned and regulated and had a good purpose.

You should read the bible. Specifically the parts where God is telling people what to do when.

I have and try to understand it in terms of who God is and what He was wanting to achieve.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I said that if I did not understand that I would still go with the morality of my God.

Yes. How is that different from the quote you are replying to????

So indeed, if you reasoning tells you it is not immoral and your god beliefs says it is immoral, while you have no clue WHY it supposedly is immoral, you'll just stay in line of your religion and label it immoral - even though you have no clue why and your own reasoning tells you that it isn't immoral.

If that isn't sacrificing your moral compass in favor of obedience to a perceived authority, then I don't know what is.

Yes God wanted to set up a society that was morally pure

Setting up a "morally pure" society by killing homosexuals, disobedient children and engaging in legalized slavery.
Fantastic.

That kind of sounds like "We bring you peace and freedom!" while the tanks are rolling in with a declaration of war.

Sounds like Putin who is currently trying to "liberate" Ukraine.

So disturbing.

in many ways and the laws were a way to achieve that.

You can't create a moral society by establishing immoral laws

If that is what he was trying, he should have said the following instead:
- Being gay is okay; leave them alone
- There's no such thing as witches, so there's nothing to kill.
- Slavery is bad and not allowed.
- If children are disobedient, discipline them. Don't kill them.

And yes slavery was condoned and regulated and had a good purpose.

Treating people as personal property, as goods that you can buy, sell and inherit, has no good purpose.
It only degrades humans and humanity at large.

I have and try to understand it in terms of who God is and what He was wanting to achieve.

And as per your own acknowledgement, when you find something is wrong and your god allows it, you assume that you are incorrect and just go with what you believe your god says and thus willingly ignore your own moral compass.


Again, this is how you get otherwise decent people to commit attrocities.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You better just give up then..

Why? Did it still not sink in?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have no carnal desires. Guess who is happier?

Happiness is completely subjective. There's no way to answer such a question and therefore no reason to pursue it further.

 

[ppp]

Marriage includes 1.

You are confused about how sets work. Getting married is one nonsexual expression of romantic love among many possible nonsexual expressions of romantic love. And it is an expression of love that your religion forbids.

 

[ppp]

Yes they follow the religious teaching

Yep. Just as when they do evil.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Yep. Just as when they do evil.

Religions do not teach evil.

Humans do evil deeds out of ego

 

[KWED]

The world is not yet ready to discuss these topics.

You might not be, but some of us are - and they definitely need discussing.

O SON OF SPIRIT! Noble have I created thee, yet thou hast abased thyself. Rise then unto that for which thou wast created.

Still trotting out the meaningless platitudes, I see.

"Hidden Words Bahá’u’lláh"

Hardly "hidden" if they are published in books.

 

[KWED]

Baha'is do not judge people for being homosexual just because there is a Baha'i Law that prohibits homosexual acts for Baha'is.
There is no logical connection whatsoever.

You can't say homosexuality is a shameful sexual aberration but also claim you are not judging homosexuals.

Also interesting that despite my criticism being of Bahai belief, I am constantly accused of attacking Bahais.
You can't have it both ways.

 

[KWED]

There is no homophobia in the Baha'i teachings. There is only a Baha'i Law that prohibits homosexual acts for those who are Baha'is. THAT is not homophobia, not by any stretch of the imagination.

homophobia: dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
what is homophobia - Google Search

Calling homosexuality "a shameful sexual aberration" is 100%, cast-iron, top-shelf homophobia.
Fact!

 

[ppp]

Religions do not teach evil.

Yes, they do. Often explicitly. They also teach good. Often explicitly.

Humans do evil deeds out of ego

Yes, they do. Among a myriad complexity of other reasons. Fear. Ignorance. Social pressure. Religious indoctrination. Political indoctrination. Laziness. Helplessness. Desperation.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Yes, they do. Often explicitly. They also teach good. Often explicitly.



Yes, they do. Among a myriad complexity of other reasons. Fear. Ignorance. Social pressure. Religious indoctrination. Political indoctrination. Laziness. Helplessness. Desperation.

You must have a horrible time here on RF when all the religions people discussion faith and belief.

 

[KWED]

There is no homophobia or sexual discrimination in the Baha'i Faith.
There are no barbaric punishments.

Women are prohibited from holding certain positions based only on gender = textbook sexual discrimination.
Bahaullah said that a person guilty of arson should be burned alive = textbook barbaric punishment.

Cognitive dissonance or simple dishonesty prevents you from admitting it.

All we have in the Baha'i Faith are certain Laws that apply only to Baha'is.

That doesn't make the homophobia, sexual discrimination and barbaric punishments not those things.
Example.
A golf club has a rule that no black people are allowed in the clubhouse.
The rule only applies to club members.
Does that mean it is not racism?
Obviously not.

What you think

is sexual discrimination or a barbaric punishment is only a matter of your personal opinion, yet you state it as a fact.

No. I am applying definitions used in law.
"Unnecessary and degrading references to someone’s sexual orientation" is classed as homophobic harassment and is illegal.
(This is where you try to claim that calling homosexuality "a shameful sexual aberration" is not a "degrading reference" )

The law prohibits any "cruel or unusual punishment". Burning someone alive is about as cruel and unusual as you can get.

Interesting that you feel more comfortable defending illegal acts than admitting that there may be flaws in your beliefs.

 

[KWED]

But the Baha'i Faith never called homosexuality such. You took what is written on homosexuality...

Once again, you present a contradictory argument.
If there are Bahai writings that say "X about Y", then "X" is what the Bahai faith says about "Y".
This is basic stuff.

and twisted the meaning to suit your purposes.

I just used the words taken from official Bahai sources, words written by Bahai representatives like Bahaullah, Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi.
They said those things, so they are a part of Bahaism.
Deal with it.

 

[KWED]

I can hardly believe that anyone could be THAT illogical.
I suggest that you look up the definition of homophobic.

The Black-or-White Fallacy is the provision of only two alternatives in an argument when there are actually more options available. ... It's also sometimes called the Gray Fallacy, between black and white options, or the middle-ground fallacy, after a middle ground between two warring camps.
black and white fallacy examples in politics - nazwa.pl

If you think there is something wrong with homosexuality, you are homophobic.
If you think there is something wrong with black people, you are racist.
If you think there is something wrong with women, you are a sexist.

Or do you think that it is ok to be a bit homophobic or racist or sexist?
If so, where is the line? How much racism is acceptable to you? Be specific.

 

[KWED]

And who is the judge of what is morally acceptable?

A combination of society, the law, and expert opinion.
Who do you think it is? Bahaullah?