Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

In the end children have to be part of our lives, we were one and our experiences can teach others, I see why some choose not to, it is a great responsibility and challenge, it requires one to give of much time.

Children do not have to be a part of our lives unless we choose to make them a part of our lives. I never had children and children have never been a part of my life, and I don't feel guilty about that or that I have been selfish. Actually, it would have been selfish if I had children because I was in no way prepared to raise a child given the parents that I had.

I have given up all my time during all the years I attended college and later in serving this Cause.
I also took care of my husband for 37 years because he could not take care of himself. I would hardly call any of that that selfish. I hardly ever have even one moment for myself.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is certainly an palpable aversion to the Baha'i Faith and an 'I'm more rational than you' vibe.

Being able to relish the irony and naked hypocrisy helps with participating in this thread.

The "aversion" is because, whether you say or not, we all know that Baha'is believe their religion is the one and only truth for today. It has replaced the teachings of all other religion and has corrected the false beliefs and doctrines that have crept into those other religions.

You may love the Baha'i Faith and agree with everything it teaches. But what about those of us that think we have found flaws within the practice and teachings of the Baha'i Faith?

But, you know what Baha'is could do, is supply some evidence that those that used to be homosexual, and then joined the Baha'i Faith, have since been "healed" of their gayness and have gone straight. In other words, do the Baha'i teachings work to actually, and successfully, get people out of that lifestyle that the Baha'i Faith teaches is wrong and has been forbidden? Are there Baha'is that have been "cured" from being homosexual? But then the next question is... How many gay Baha'is tried to change, and it didn't work? Then I've already read a couple stories of gay Baha'is that left the Faith.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Children do not have to be a part of our lives unless we choose to make them a part of our lives. I never had children and children have never been a part of my life, and I don't feel guilty about that or that I have been selfish. Actually, it would have been selfish if I had children because I was in no way prepared to raise a child given the parents that I had.

I have given up all my time during all the years I attended college and later in serving this Cause.
I also took care of my husband for 37 years because he could not take care of himself. I would hardly call any of that that selfish. I hardly ever have even one moment for myself.

All the best to you Susan, stay safe, stay happy, stay strong and may you and your cats have many wonderful years to come.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Why would they? As a Baha'i I have nothing against them, they are free to be as they are, I will not judge them.

More then likely they will not embrace the Laws of the Baha'i Faith, but we can share life working together for the good of all.

Regards Tony

It's only people outside of Faith that are offering that we are not accepting of them CG.

I know you and other Baha'is say that, but it's hard to believe it true. Because the Baha'i Faith is not okay with the way they are. Once they join, they have obligated themselves to change their homosexual behavior. They are not "free" to keep having homosexual relationships.

 

[CG Didymus]

Fertility rates of heterosexual couples over a one year period are about 80 - 85%. Fertility rates for homosexual couples over a one year period are exactly 0 %. Science establishes a strong co-relationship between fertility and heterosexual intercourse and a non-existent relationship between homosexuality and fertility.

No, is it wrong? Baha'is say yes. Does science agree? Homosexuals can seek help and get cured of their affliction? Does science agree? But I really don't think it matters. Because Baha'is believe these teachings came from God. Only problem is... what about science and religion agreeing?

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm not aware of any Baha'i law that explicitly forbids masturbation.

This is part of the quote that TB posted. For those of us to enjoy sex with others and with oneself, it is "ammunition" for us to come to the conclusion that the Baha'i Faith is way too strict. And why have moral codes and sexual laws that most people cannot and will not follow? And I think the Baha'i beliefs on homosexuality will only cause a lot of people that have those desires, yet want to be Baha'is, to go back into the closet.

"In another letter on the Guardian's behalf, also to an individual believer, the secretary writes:

'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex…'

"This indicates how the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society.

"Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct

 

[CG Didymus]

True, it can be a turn off however and detract from the sexual experience.

In some college course they talked about that some Christians, centuries ago, were super strict on how they were to perform the sex act. Compared to them, most Christians today are very open and free about sex. Of course, compared to some people today, Christians are still too strict.

 

[CG Didymus]

I dont know what the Bahi faith says in any of their books because i've never read them. No i dont believe he replaces Jesus or anyone else for that matter, and no i dont believe he is the incarnation of God .

But I do know what the Christian scriptures state regarding homosexuality and other forms of sexual misconduct. What it says shows that, even though the mosaic law was put aside, Gods standards were still inforce. The difference now is that it is God himself who will pass and execute judgment on those who do such things. No one on earth is to pronounce judgement or execute any kind of punishment to wrongdoers.

1Cor6:9-11 “What! Do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean, but you have been sanctified, but you have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.”

You see, even though God is against the act of homosexuality, he is not against the person themselves.

Still when and why did the law about stoning them change?

 

[dybmh]

Still when and why did the law about stoning them change?

My recollection is that the law didn't change, but, it was very difficult to enforce, and the Jewish religious courts were discouraged from handing out a death penalty.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I know you and other Baha'is say that, but it's hard to believe it true. Because the Baha'i Faith is not okay with the way they are. Once they join, they have obligated themselves to change their homosexual behavior. They are not "free" to keep having homosexual relationships.

Then, in the first place, they must have a very good reason why they are choosing to embrace the Message of Baha’u’llah.

Everyone that does choose, has to face what every Baha'i subsequently faces, a complete re-examination of one's pre-conceived ideas, morals, virtues and goals in life.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is your opinion that God judges other people. So it might not be a fact . That is how you judge other humans. You claim God does.

I judge myself only not others. My belief applies only to myself. I don’t tell God what to do or to judge or not to judge. That’s up to God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My recollection is that the law didn't change, but, it was very difficult to enforce, and the Jewish religious courts were discouraged from handing out a death penalty.

@ CG Didymus

This was raised by Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-iqan, a story about Muhammad and how men change the Word of God.

".. Among them is the story of Ibn-i-Ṣúríyá. When the people of Khaybar asked the focal center of the Muḥammadan Revelation concerning the penalty of adultery committed between a married man and a married woman, Muḥammad answered and said: “The law of God is death by stoning.” Whereupon they protested saying: “No such law hath been revealed in the Pentateuch.” Muḥammad answered and said: “Whom do ye regard among your rabbis as being a recognized authority and having a sure knowledge of the truth?” They agreed upon Ibn-i-Súríyá. Thereupon Muḥammad summoned him and said: “I adjure thee by God Who clove the sea for you, caused manna to descend upon you, and the cloud to overshadow you, Who delivered you from Pharaoh and his people, and exalted you above all human beings, to tell us what Moses hath decreed concerning adultery between a married man and a married woman.” He made reply: “O Muḥammad! death by stoning is the law.” Muḥammad observed: “Why is it then that this law is annulled and hath ceased to operate among the Jews?” He answered and said: “When Nebuchadnezzar delivered Jerusalem to the flames, and put the Jews to death, only a few survived. The divines of that age, considering the extremely limited number of the Jews, and the multitude of the Amalekites, took counsel together, and came to the conclusion that were they to enforce the law of the Pentateuch, every survivor who hath been delivered from the hand of Nebuchadnezzar would have to be put to death according to the verdict of the Book. Owing to such considerations, they totally repealed the penalty of death.” Meanwhile Gabriel inspired Muḥammad’s illumined heart with these words: “They pervert the text of the Word of God..."

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

Unless they're gay apparently. Homophobic bigotry is not my notion of justice.

While Bahá’ís hold specific beliefs about human identity, sexuality, personal morality, and individual and social transformation, they also believe that individuals must be free to investigate truth and should not be coerced. They are, therefore, enjoined to be tolerant of those whose views differ from their own, not to judge others according to their own standards, and not to attempt to impose these standards on society. To regard a person who has a homosexual orientation with prejudice or disdain is entirely against the spirit of the Faith. And where occasion demands, it would be appropriate to speak out or act against unjust or oppressive measures directed towards homosexuals." (House of Justice)

 

[Brian2]

Well, I don't like it for me but I am not a guy either.

If you find it a yucky thing to do then you don't need to do it.
If you like pleasing your partner no matter what then go for it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well, here in the U.S. we love our cowboy movies. They'd have these poor settlers heading West to find their dream. Then you'd hear the music. The war drums of these people that came riding across the plains only to kill and terrorize these poor settlers. The wagon train would circle up and the men would try their best to fight them off. But they were outnumbered. There was no hope. But then... you heard the bugle sounding. The cavalry was coming over the hills.

Who were the victims? Who were the oppressors? Should have all the other nations of the world risen up and sent these Europeans invaders back across the sea? But whoever we choose to help it still involves fighting.

Although Baha’is are against war we are not pacifists but believe in justice and collective security to protect the innocent from the oppressor just like any society has a police force to protect citizens from criminals. Same thing except on an international scale so something like an international police force which can arrest and stop crimes committed by dictators and war criminals.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I wish some gays would jump in here as say a few things. But look how some religious people have treated them. You know all the names they get called. You know that some "real" men have beaten them up and even killed them. You know that they had to keep their feelings secret. Then, they busted loose and said, "No more" and told us to get "used" to it. They are here and deal with it.

It is for their sake that we are asking those of you that hold religious beliefs that say homosexuality is wrong, ungodly, unnatural, abhorrent, evil that maybe it's your religion that is %&*^# $ up.

And of course, JW's and Baha'is? Neither of you believes in each other's religion.

Baha’is are told to uphold and defend the victims of oppression including homosexuals.


While Bahá’ís hold specific beliefs about human identity, sexuality, personal morality, and individual and social transformation, they also believe that individuals must be free to investigate truth and should not be coerced. They are, therefore, enjoined to be tolerant of those whose views differ from their own, not to judge others according to their own standards, and not to attempt to impose these standards on society. To regard a person who has a homosexual orientation with prejudice or disdain is entirely against the spirit of the Faith. And where occasion demands, it would be appropriate to speak out or act against unjust or oppressive measures directed towards homosexuals." (House of Justice)

 

[YoursTrue]

There are people that often join a faith without forensically analysing all the scriptures/writings of that faith. They join usually because they are inspired by the writings or more often by the feeling they get around the members, (as was my own case with another religion, not Bahai).

I first met Bahais when I was living in Israel(circa 1970) and really enjoyed their company and vision.
I saw it as a natural progression from Judaism, Christianity & Islam(i.e with my limited knowledge of all 3). I saw it as a progressive message. (I knew nothing of Dharmic religions at the time)
I always thought the message was more important than the messenger.

More recently, I met up with Bahais again in London, their centre was near my college.(late 1980s)
All the meetings and social occasions I ever attended with them was interfaith with no hint of proselytizing. In fact, I don't remember even of hearing of Bahaullah until I came online in 1995.

Presently, I live in SW England in a small town where I know several of the local Bahais. They often answer enquiries by saying that they don't know everything about their religion or simply "I don't know".
As I understand it, Bahai is relatively new religion and not all the writings have been translated/released by their ruling body, so Bahais are still learning.

I guess you have to believe that Bahaullah was an emissary of God.

 

[YoursTrue]

Although Baha’is are against war we are not pacifists but believe in justice and collective security to protect the innocent from the oppressor just like any society has a police force to protect citizens from criminals. Same thing except on an international scale so something like an international police force which can arrest and stop crimes committed by dictators and war criminals.

Interesting from what I read the top person religiously in Russia (Orthodox church there) claims that if men would go to war for Russia their sins would be washed away...and I guess some believe that.

 

[Brian2]

In some college course they talked about that some Christians, centuries ago, were super strict on how they were to perform the sex act. Compared to them, most Christians today are very open and free about sex. Of course, compared to some people today, Christians are still too strict.

Yes I guess some groups teach that sex is for baby making only and maybe that makes them a bit iffy about doing stuff for pleasure only without any baby making in sight.
Some groups no doubt like to tell their followers what is and is not allowed in the bedroom.
If too strict means that Christians should say sex outside of marriage is OK, then we are too strict and will probably remain so.
I hear that pornography sex has changed expectations in the young about what should and should not be done during sex. That is probably not really healthy.
I imagine that sex is more normal and expected these days amongst young people.
Trends in sexual behaviour have changed since contraception became available more freely and since online pornography is easily accessed by anyone and since society's views on sexual morality (coming through the media) are not really Christian views.

 

[YoursTrue]

There are people that often join a faith without forensically analysing all the scriptures/writings of that faith. They join usually because they are inspired by the writings or more often by the feeling they get around the members, (as was my own case with another religion, not Bahai).

I first met Bahais when I was living in Israel(circa 1970) and really enjoyed their company and vision.
I saw it as a natural progression from Judaism, Christianity & Islam(i.e with my limited knowledge of all 3). I saw it as a progressive message. (I knew nothing of Dharmic religions at the time)
I always thought the message was more important than the messenger.

More recently, I met up with Bahais again in London, their centre was near my college.(late 1980s)
All the meetings and social occasions I ever attended with them was interfaith with no hint of proselytizing. In fact, I don't remember even of hearing of Bahaullah until I came online in 1995.

Presently, I live in SW England in a small town where I know several of the local Bahais. They often answer enquiries by saying that they don't know everything about their religion or simply "I don't know".
As I understand it, Bahai is relatively new religion and not all the writings have been translated/released by their ruling body, so Bahais are still learning.

Look, people become all sorts of things -- believe all sorts of soothsayers, mystics, fortunetellers, shamans, -- shrug. whatever... I'm sure some people are nice in the various faiths.