Homosexuality and religious.

[Aupmanyav]

Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me.
Shouldst thou transgress this command, accursed wouldst thou be, and to this I bear witness.

But loverofhumanity, I or KWED did not say that homosexuality is good or bad. it is what Bahaollah said and his words are the words of Allah. Where do my fault or KWED's faults come in? As a Bahai you have to say that homosexuals are abomination. You can't go against the word of Allah.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The original issue was with Bahaism's homophobic teachings, calling it "evil, immoral, sexual aberration that needs purging from the world".
I don't see how you cam claim that the teachings are the perfect word of god, and that you follow them to be a better person, etc, but also claim that you don't condone or agree with what those teachings actually say.

Often, that distinction seems to depend on the nature of the scripture. When it's about nice stuff, then scripture is brilliant and true, when it's violent or intolerant, suddenly we shouldn't pay attention to it or it doesn't mean what it says.

Well, still waiting for evidence for how you demonstrate that another person is wrong?

Since that can be considered intolerant and lead to violence, I assume it doesn't really mean what it says and we should ignore it?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Once again, you misunderstand.
@loverofhumanity claimed "To regard homosexuals with prejudice and disdain would be entirely against the spirit of Bahá'í Teachings."
Bahai teachings call homosexuality "evil, immoral, aberration that needs purging from the world", so they were clearly and demonstrably wrong.

The Baha’i teachings teach us what is right and wrong. Why should we accept what others say is right or wrong? Who decides what is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral? You? Me? Popular opinion? The government? I prefer to trust in God not the fallible error prone mind of man.

 

[KWED]

I would rather rely on an All Knowing God on these issues than the error prone human mind

Ok, so you accept that regardless of your personal feelings on the issue, homosexuality is immoral, evil, a sexual aberration that needs purging from the world, because that's what god thinks about it.

Just because the Baha’i Writings say something is immoral doesn’t say to hate those who practise these things.

Straw man. I'm not saying that @Seeker of White Light, or any other Bahai hates homosexuals, I am just pointing out that Bahai scripture contains some pretty nasty homophobia and wondering what their position is on the issue.
It turns out that while many of you seem uncomfortable with it, you simply accept it as morally justified because it's in Bahai scripture.

All people are considered equals without judgement or condemnation.

Nonsense. Bahai scripture calls homosexuality "immoral, evil, a sexual aberration that needs purging from the world". That is not treating homosexuals as equals and without condemnation or judgement!

Breathe not the sins of others so long as thou art thyself a sinner. Shouldst thou transgress this command, accursed wouldst thou be, and to this I bear witness. (Hidden Words, #27 from the Arabic)

So if you are a teacher and you know that one of your pupils is being abused by another teacher, you can't say anything if you are jealous of a friend's new car.
Seems reasonable.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The Baha’i teachings teach us what is right and wrong. Why should we accept what others say is right or wrong? Who decides what is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral? You? Me? Popular opinion? The government? I prefer to trust in God not the fallible error prone mind of man.

I do it differently. But such is faith.

 

[KWED]

Non of this is what i said. You making up your version of what is said "AGAIN"

*sigh*
They may not be the exact words (I was paraphrasing for brevity), but it is the implication of the words you used.
Once again, you are hampered by your problems with the meanings of words and syntax.

By the way, i do not know Gods Thoughts so i do not know what God thinking

So we are back to where we were. You accept what god says simply because he says it, even though you admit you don't understand why he says it, despite all your pondering.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I do it differently. But such is faith.

Everyone has the right to believe. But what we have here is antagonism because we believe differently. Believe me, if someone tries to hurt or harm a homosexual friend, I am the first to come to his defence but that doesn’t mean I’m going to sleep with him.

Live and let live.

 

[wellwisher]

Why does a person have to be 'hateful' to disbelieve in LGBTQ ?
Is a person hateful for opposing adultery, divorce, rape, abuse, polygamous, pedophilia ??

The phobic label is an emotional manipulation tactic, designed by the Left, to create compliance to bad ideas, by using the good nature of religious and all good people, against them. The result of this tactic is that common sense reason will come in conflict with emotions, thereby inhibiting sound reasoning. The antidote is to judge yourself, in terms of your heart, to see if there is hate or not, and if not, then be calm and rely on your reasoning. Don't let the emotional manipulation judge for you, and inhibit reason and common sense. Like in the market place you do not have to buy every product, out of fear of being called a hater. The Left does not believe in a free market. Like gas they raised the price of free thinking.

Where I first fully understood this tactic was when I was watching stand up comedy on cable, which can be insulting to everyone. If you are secure in yourself and do not define yourself with a mask or group label, you should be able to laugh at yourself, since comedy exaggerates the generic herd masks, for the laugh. When everyone is laughing, superficial and collective walls that once divided us, come down, and we all seem to be one smiling family. We could have religious and atheists, black and white, male and female and all in-between in a comedy club. If we are all laughing, we become one family. Look in each others eyes and you will see familiar. There is something deeper than the shallows of groups, that comedy targets.

The political left started to call comedy hate and phobic, if it addressed any of their social engineering experiments. This made no sense, since everyone was laughing and full of joy, not hate. Why are they calling joy, hate or fear? I decided not to allow others to accuse me of something, that was not true, to inhibit and silence me and provide themselves cover against observation and reasoning.

Before contemporary woman's liberation; 1960's, male and female cultures were more segregated. Men, in preparation for life; husband and father and war, would try to strengthen each other. Part of this training was connected to emotional toughness, by insulting each other, with clever whit and comedy. Like in football, nobody wants to get emotionally hit, but the more times that happens, in practice, the less it hurts. The idea behind this tough emotional training was, the other teams of life and war want to hurt you bad, so you and your team need to practice hurting each other; controlled experiments, so in the day of competition, one is immune to physical and emotional pain, so life becomes easier.

As women left the home, and came into the the male dominated job market, women were not used to this male tradition; being hard, rude, but playful as a team. The males tried to welcome the smaller numbers of females to the male dominate world. But the females had their own traditions. They were more two faced; insult behind the back but friendly to the face. They were taken back by the open honesty designed to get under one's emotional skin; practice to harden emotions to insults. Men were force to change this age old team behavior, in favor the female traditions. This increasingly led to over sensitize emotions in males and females since son's never were able to learn, properly.

Instead of taking hits, in practice, one had to go into the game of life, unprepared, and overly sensitive to even minor hits. The accusation of phobia and hate was now easier to induce. Culture would have been better off, letting the males lead, instead of allowing a smaller groups to control the larger, like we have today. The larger group has the advantage and this is where everyone can learn the map to that success. This is finally being reversed. Women in sports are learning how this team toughening for adversity, helps with life; strong body and level head in times of stress. The Left tried to take them out with transgender dominance in female sports; instill compliance to a small group. They were called haters for fighting back.

 

[KWED]

Have you read the Hidden Words of Baha’u’llah and what He says about condemning others?

Yes, and it makes no sense.
More importantly given the subject of this thread, have you read the passages in Bahai texts that express some quite nasty homophobia? Obviously not.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Okay, I will try to answer with 2 different versions of God.
God is the source of morality and I can judge you using God.
God is the source of morality and I don't judge you using God. I leave that to God.
There are more versions of that and I personally use a 3rd one.

For me, the source of morality is one's society.

 

[Spirit of Light]

*sigh*
They may not be the exact words (I was paraphrasing for brevity), but it is the implication of the words you used.
Once again, you are hampered by your problems with the meanings of words and syntax.

So we are back to where we were. You accept what god says simply because he says it, even though you admit you don't understand why he says it, despite all your pondering.

Oh i for the most part get why God say what God say. But how to fully practice it in my own life is sometimes not that easy. So finding the deeper sense of the truth is what takes time.

 

[KWED]

“Agree with me 100% or your a bigot” has infected many here and elsewhere.

If you call homosexuality "evil, immoral, an aberration that needs purging from the world", then you are indeed a homophobic bigot.
Do you disagree?

 

[KWED]

Just to clear some things up.

God, Baha’is believe is the Judge of humankind including people and kings. Baha’u’llah wrote condemning some kings and rulers as a Manifestation of God. But Baha’is are forbidden to do that as we are not Prophets just humble followers. So God may condemn certain acts in Baha’u’llah’s Writings but Baha’is must look with a sin covering eye because we do not possess authority from God like a Prophet does.

So no matter how strongly Baha’u’llah might condemn something, that is His Authority as a Manifestation of God while we followers must show tolerance, forbearance and unconditional love without judgement.

God is the sole judge not us followers. We are told to busy ourselves with perfecting ourselves not judging others. It is for God to do that not us.

So you don't agree with god on any issue?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, and it makes no sense.
More importantly given the subject of this thread, have you read the passages in Bahai texts that express some quite nasty homophobia? Obviously not.

Its not sugar coated but just because we see it differently doesn’t mean it’s homophobia. You’re playing this card but Baha’is see homosexuals as human beings worthy of love and friendship.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

For me, the source of morality is one's society.

There is no society as say gravity. And your model doesn't answer how morality changes over time in a society.

 

[KWED]

If there are sins it is a matter for God. I’m not free from sin just because I believe and I will be judged just like anyone else. When I consider my own life and sins I can but hope that my good outweighs my faults.

Do you believe that what god says are sins, are sins?
Do you believe that what god says is evil, is evil?
Do you believe that what god says needs to be purged from the earth, needs to be purged from the earth?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Do you believe that what god says are sins, are sins?
Do you believe that what god says is evil, is evil?
Do you believe that what god says needs to be purged from the earth, needs to be purged from the earth?

You leave out the difference between God and them. As far as I can tell, they believe in sins, but they believe God is the one that holds judgment over that.
They are in effect for some of their posts saying the following. They judge their own individual behaviour using God's words, but they don't judge other humans in God's name using God's word.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You leave out the difference between God and them. As far as I can tell, they believe in sins, but they believe God is the one that holds judgment over that.
They are in effect for some of their posts saying the following. They judge their own individual behaviour using God's words, but they don't judge other humans in God's name using God's word.

Bingo..

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you call homosexuality "evil, immoral, an aberration that needs purging from the world", then you are indeed a homophobic bigot.
Do you disagree?

That’s you’re words out of context. The Baha’i Writings condemn all forms of immorality such as adultery, pedophilia etc.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So you don't agree with god on any issue?

Thats you’re right and I respect that fully. I was an atheist for many years. But I believe most people are good despite having no belief because we are humanity.