Homosexuality and religious.

[loverofhumanity]

I thought you believed the Quran was the actual word of god. It is very keen on war.

So war against Bahais is ok because they oppress homosexuals by calling them immoral, unnatural, evil, handicapped, shameful aberration, to be purged from the world, and by requiring them to suppress their true nature and undergo illegal and unscientific conversion therapy?

All references to war in the Quran are referring t9 self defense.

2:190 And fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: but commit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not such injustice:

How many times must I post this? It’s pretty clear that we are to uphold the dignity of homosexuals as individuals.

While Bahá’ís hold specific beliefs about human identity, sexuality, personal morality, and individual and social transformation,

So you reject the argument that homosexuality is wrong because they cannot produce children.

Apart from homosexuals, of course. You would rather that there were no homosexuals (that's what "purged from the world" means.)

Well that's clearly not true. There are millions of people with those values who are not Bahais. And you can't claim to love all humanity and want universal brotherhood when you call hundreds of millions of people's lives a evil, shameful aberration, against nature, to be purged from the world, etc

Classic Bahaullah platitude.


No.

 

[KWED]

The opinion held by atheists that homosexuality is not wrong is a personal opinion and not a fact.

No. It is the only rational position. There is no evidence to support the argument that it is wrong, and evidence to support the argument that it is not wrong.

The opinion held by believers that homosexuality is wrong is a belief and not a fact.

Indeed. You have nothing to support your opinion other than repeated assertions.
"It is wrong because it is wrong because it is wrong".

 

[loverofhumanity]

So now you are calling same-sex parents "positively dangerous" for the children! You just can't help yourself, can you? You probably don't even realise you are doing it.

I wouldn’t want to be without my mother or father. When my father abandoned us that ruined my life. Dangerous yes. I tried to commit suicide 6 times. I am a living witness to what happens to a person when they are deprived of their caring parents. Although I was closer to my mother yet the loss of my father of the opposite sex caused me to become extremely distraught.

As a child I needed both my mother and father. Every child needs that which a same sex marriage cannot provide as it will always lack the qualities of the opposite sex.

 

[loverofhumanity]

He was quite the dreamer, that Bahaullah.

It’s just what we need.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So, war for a good and righteous cause is okay? And sometimes the police beat up, tear gas and even shoot protesters that have gathered together to protest police brutality.

Justice is what is most important. Everyone should be treated justly and fairly but Justice can also mean preventing a war criminal from continually committing genocide so intervention might be required.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Now I have heard everything.

So you don't understand the difference between sex and the other ways to produce a child?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Some of us think that Baha'i laws that forbid homosexuality is oppressive. And that's what we are speaking out against.

Not so if you take into account that membership is voluntary. No one says you have to join our religion and if you disagree with its teachings on homosexuality you should not join.

But to try and force Baha’is to change their beliefs is unjust and just as people are completely free to believe homosexuality is moral, we too are completely free to believe it is immoral. But we don’t go around trying to force those who believe in it to change. We say to them you go your way and we will go ours. But they are not happy with this. They seek to bash and bully and try and discredit us for not accepting their views.

Yet where do they get their views from that homosexuality is good or moral or right? Ask them? Where? From their own desires? From the ‘thoroughly rotten morals’ of a decadent society? From government? From homosexuals? From popular opinion? As a Baha’i I reject those sources as competent sources of accurate information and claim that the only source of infallible knowledge with regards to morals comes from God and His Messengers. So we place our whole trust in God not man. And believe in God’s verdict on the matter. But still we are called to treat all with loving kindness.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Not so if you take into account that membership is voluntary. No one says you have to join our religion and if you disagree with its teachings on homosexuality you should not join.

But to try and force Baha’is to change their beliefs is unjust and just as people are completely free to believe homosexuality is moral, we too are completely free to believe it is immoral. But we don’t go around trying to force those who believe in it to change. We say to them you go your way and we will go ours. But they are not happy with this. They seek to bash and bully and try and discredit us for not accepting their views.

Yet where do they get their views from that homosexuality is good or moral or right? Ask them? Where? From their own desires? From the ‘thoroughly rotten morals’ of a decadent society? From government? From homosexuals? From popular opinion? As a Baha’i I reject those sources as competent sources of accurate information and claim that the only source of infallible knowledge with regards to morals comes from God and His Messengers. So we place our whole trust in God not man. And believe in God’s verdict on the matter. But still we are called to treat all with loving kindness.

The problem is that if you are born into it and it is part of your local culture.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Now I have heard everything.

Most likely offering, sperm and egg donations with surrogacy with in vitro fertilization.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The problem is that if you are born into it and it is part of your local culture.

Most Baha'i are not born into it, and it is not the local culture.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

The problem is that if you are born into it and it is part of your local culture.

I really don’t look at people whether they are homosexual or trans or lesbian. I always see a fellow equal human. I think homosexuals sometimes are too self conscious and not self accepting so walk around with a chip on their shoulder thinking the world rejects and hates them but that’s in their imagination. Maybe in the past.

But today nobody really cares. I don’t care. People are people in my book. This almost crusade to get everyone to agree with homosexuality will never happen.

What we have to achieve as humans is not to mistreat people because of their private preferences. I think that’s the best we can achieve. But it’s unrealistic that everyone in the world must be forced to agree it is moral. We shouldn’t be fazed or rattled because we all don’t agree.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Most Baha'i are not born into it, and it is not the local culture.

Regards Tony

Then some are and they are still a part of we.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I really don’t look at people whether they are homosexual or trans or lesbian. I always see a fellow equal human. I think homosexuals sometimes are too self conscious and not self accepting so walk around with a chip on their shoulder thinking the world rejects and hates them but that’s in their imagination. Maybe in the past.

But today nobody really cares. I don’t care. People are people in my book. This almost crusade to get everyone to agree with homosexuality will never happen.

What we have to achieve as humans is not to mistreat people because of their private preferences. I think that’s the best we can achieve. But it’s unrealistic that everyone in the world must be forced to agree it is moral. We shouldn’t be fazed or rattled because we all don’t agree.

Yet, some of your follow Bahias try to justify your moral codes using science and how people function in the everyday world. I.e. they try to justify their moral as how the world is to us all as per facts.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Curious on the topic, I found this video

You mean, I just can't get those Baha'is out of my head....

Mr. Orey was a Bahai who wrote a letter in 1993 to the NSA of the USA. Two months back he put this video on line. It's very well done and summarizes the situation well. I watched the whole thing, it's only 22 minutes long.

Well, 22 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

I'm gay and I've dealt with homophobic prejudice and ignorance all my life. Then I discovered this great religion when I was a university student. It was so good I didn't bother to ask anyone about what this religion taught about sexuality. Nor did I research what this religion taught about homosexuality before signing up.

People back in the 80s people didn't know how to read and study because the internet wasn't invented. I'm a university academic by the way.

 

[Dawnofhope]

1) The conversion therapy perscribed by the Baha'i teachings are harmful. There have been a few sources posted to confirm that one cannot be treated for a change in sexual preference.

I'm not aware of any 'conversion' prescribed by the Baha'is. There was general advice to seek medical advice at a time when homosexuality was considered a mental disorder.

2) If a gay Baha'i is born into the faith, they will be taught that their sexual preference is evil and unnatural. This is psychologically damaging.

Baha'is in my experience avoid words such as evil when applied to sexual behaviors such as homosexual sex and extramarital sex. They would rather use words such as against God's laws. It may mean the same thing to some but the word evil has all sorts of connotations that would not be intended.

It could be argued that Baha'i parents failing to inform their children of God's laws and the consequences of disobedience is equally harmful. Its all relative to whether one believes in God and His laws.

 

[samtonga43]

[QUOTE="Dawnofhope, post: 7867915, member: 54290People back in the 80s didn't know how to read and study because the internet wasn't invented. [/QUOTE]
What? Please tell me you're joking!!!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Wait a minute though, God says, through his manifestation Baha'u'llah, that there is not supposed to be gay marriages. And what exactly would Baha'is do with a gay couple, that had a family of adopted children, that wanted to join the Baha'i Faith? Would they be told they can't unless they get a divorce or one of them gets a sex change?

Why would a gay couple with children want to join a religion whose laws prohibit homosexual behaviour? They would be welcome to attend any Baha'i meeting other than the 19 day feast and Baha'i elections just like anyone else.

 

[Dawnofhope]

[QUOTE="Dawnofhope, post: 7867915, member: 54290People back in the 80s didn't know how to read and study because the internet wasn't invented.

What? Please tell me you're joking!!! [/QUOTE]

Yes. Are you?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, that was great. One thing though, he said, "I frequented libraries looking up with fierce — but ultimately futile — hopes that I would find evidence this hated trait was a phase I would grow out of or a condition that I could be cured of. Come to find out that curing doesn’t work..." The Baha'i Faith believes it can be cured. That's an important argument being used against the Baha'i teachings. Can it be cured or not? If not or only rarely, then what? Is that part of the teachings wrong and is it something that can be revised?

Sexual fluidity is a real thing and much more common in those who identify as lesbian, bisexual and gay males than heterosexuals.

One study by Steven E. Mock and Richard P. Eibach from 2011 shows 2% of 2,560 adult participants included in National Survey of Midlife Development in the United States reported change of sexual orientation identities after a 10-year period: 0.78% of male and 1.36% of female persons that identified themselves to be heterosexuals at the beginning of the 10-year period, as well as 63.6% of lesbians, 64.7% of bisexual females, 9.52% of gay males, and 47% of bisexual males. According to the study, "this pattern was consistent with the hypothesis that heterosexuality is a more stable sexual orientation identity, perhaps because of its normative status.

Sexual fluidity - Wikipedia

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, if we switch to a Baha'i man and a woman who openly commits adultery. To them, they believe an "open" marriage is good and is healthy for their relationship. But everybody knows what they are doing. The Baha'i community would have to try and get them to stop wouldn't they. That couple is harming the image of what it is to be a Baha'i. Same thing with an openly gay Baha'i. Can the Baha'i community do nothing?

Flagrant violation of Baha'i laws is problematic for the Baha'is who break them and the Baha'i Assemblies who administer those laws. It is the same principle whether sex before marriage, adultery or a gay couple. If it is flagrant then Baha'i Assemblies are duty bound to respond.