Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

Some things are universally nonsensical. Bahaullah even gave two specific examples to show how nonsensical you are expected to just blindly accept...

"Were He to pronounce the right to be the left or the south to be the north, He speaketh the truth and there is no doubt of it."

Without context that quote is meaningless.

 

[KWED]

You did no service. Anyone can get that information on the internet.

But you spent 20 odd pages denying it!!
You really haven't a clue what's going on, poor thing.

 

[KWED]

Without context that quote is meaningless.

Dear gods!
The context was the post before, that you have to accept what Bahaullah says, without question, even if it is nonsensical.
He gave the example of left being right and north being south of things that you have to blindly accept to show how nonsensical it could be.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you spent 20 odd pages denying it!!
You really haven't a clue what's going on, poor thing.

I never denied the Baha'i Laws and teachings on homosexuality.
You really haven't a clue what's going on.

 

[Trailblazer]

Dear gods!
The context was the post before, that you have to accept what Bahaullah says, without question, even if it is nonsensical.
He gave the example of left being right and north being south of things that you have to blindly accept to show how nonsensical it could be.

Without context that quote is meaningless.

 

[dybmh]

Without context that quote is meaningless.

Here it is in context. Please correct me, but, I'm reading this as a clear instruction to believe even an outright contradiction as truth if it is coming from a messenger.

"Consider thou and call to mind the time when Muḥammad appeared. He said, and His word is the truth: is a service due to God.’ And likewise are the daily prayer, fasting, and the laws which shone forth above the horizon of the Book of God, the Lord of the World and the true Educator of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. It is incumbent upon everyone to obey Him in whatsoever God hath ordained; and whosoever denieth Him hath disbelieved in God, in His verses, in His Messengers and in His Books. Were He to pronounce right to be wrong or denial to be belief, He speaketh the truth as bidden by God. This is a station wherein sins or trespasses neither exist nor are mentioned. Consider thou the blessed, the divinely-revealed verse in which pilgrimage to the House is enjoined upon everyone. It devolved upon those invested with authority after Him 11 to observe whatever had been prescribed unto them in the Book. Unto no one is given the right to deviate from the laws and ordinances of God. Whoso deviateth therefrom is reckoned with the trespassers in the Book of God, the Lord of the Mighty Throne.

O thou who hast fixed thy gaze upon the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God! Know thou for a certainty that the Will of God is not limited by the standards of the people, and God doth not tread in their ways. Rather is it incumbent upon everyone to firmly adhere to God’s straight Path. Were He to pronounce the right to be the left or the south to be the north, He speaketh the truth and there is no doubt of it. Verily He is to be praised in His acts and to be obeyed in His behests. He hath no associate in His judgement nor any helper in His sovereignty. He doeth whatsoever He willeth and ordaineth whatsoever He 110 pleaseth. Know thou moreover that all else besides Him have been created through the potency of a word from His presence, while of themselves they have no motion nor stillness, except at His bidding and by His leave."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 101-134

 

[KWED]

Here it is in context. Please correct me, but, I'm reading this as a clear instruction to believe even an outright contradiction as truth if it is coming from a messenger.

"Consider thou and call to mind the time when Muḥammad appeared. He said, and His word is the truth: is a service due to God.’ And likewise are the daily prayer, fasting, and the laws which shone forth above the horizon of the Book of God, the Lord of the World and the true Educator of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. It is incumbent upon everyone to obey Him in whatsoever God hath ordained; and whosoever denieth Him hath disbelieved in God, in His verses, in His Messengers and in His Books. Were He to pronounce right to be wrong or denial to be belief, He speaketh the truth as bidden by God. This is a station wherein sins or trespasses neither exist nor are mentioned. Consider thou the blessed, the divinely-revealed verse in which pilgrimage to the House is enjoined upon everyone. It devolved upon those invested with authority after Him 11 to observe whatever had been prescribed unto them in the Book. Unto no one is given the right to deviate from the laws and ordinances of God. Whoso deviateth therefrom is reckoned with the trespassers in the Book of God, the Lord of the Mighty Throne.

O thou who hast fixed thy gaze upon the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God! Know thou for a certainty that the Will of God is not limited by the standards of the people, and God doth not tread in their ways. Rather is it incumbent upon everyone to firmly adhere to God’s straight Path. Were He to pronounce the right to be the left or the south to be the north, He speaketh the truth and there is no doubt of it. Verily He is to be praised in His acts and to be obeyed in His behests. He hath no associate in His judgement nor any helper in His sovereignty. He doeth whatsoever He willeth and ordaineth whatsoever He 110 pleaseth. Know thou moreover that all else besides Him have been created through the potency of a word from His presence, while of themselves they have no motion nor stillness, except at His bidding and by His leave."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 101-134

Prepare yourself for a long trip down the rabbit hole, with countless contradictions, denials and reversals of position.

 

[KWED]

I never denied the Baha'i Laws and teachings on homosexuality.
You really haven't a clue what's going on.

But you did deny that Bahai teachings contain "a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality" Homophobia - Wikipedia
Now you accept that they do. Not only that, you happily admit that you agree with those homophobic passages - thus making you a homophobe yourself.
QED.

And you will probably now contradict yourself again.

 

[PruePhillip]

Marriage is demonstrably not natural.
No other species exhibit it. Not all human or human societies do or have done over history. It is a relatively modern social construct. Although I don't feel you have the capacity to process that.

You seem to have a poor understanding of human history and of other animal behaviour.
The oldest recorded marriage was around 4500 years ago. Written history goes back some 1000 years before that. Humans have been around for several hundred thousand years.
No other species gets married.
It is not "natural" in the sense that it is widely observed over time and place and species.

Actually, many species get married - only it's called 'mating for life' or 'paired for life.'
Humans 'naturally' bond in social ceremony and have likely done so BEFORE the arrival of modern humans.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes, law can make what is legal today as illegal or vice-versa, though not very easily. There are procedures to be followed to change the law. Amendments are always there, in USA or in India. There have been some 110 amendments to Indian Constitution in 75 years of our independence.

So here's the problem. I say that pederasty could be legal one day (sex with pubescent and willing minors) and many say. 'Can't ever happen, it's against the law.'

 

[Trailblazer]

Here it is in context. Please correct me, but, I'm reading this as a clear instruction to believe even an outright contradiction as truth if it is coming from a messenger.

Thank you for the full context. I saved the passages for future reference.

It is incumbent upon everyone to obey Him in whatsoever God hath ordained; and whosoever denieth Him hath disbelieved in God, in His verses, in His Messengers and in His Books. Were He to pronounce right to be wrong or denial to be belief, He speaketh the truth as bidden by God.

Rather is it incumbent upon everyone to firmly adhere to God’s straight Path. Were He to pronounce the right to be the left or the south to be the north, He speaketh the truth and there is no doubt of it. Verily He is to be praised in His acts and to be obeyed in His behests. ​

He was not saying that right is wrong or that denial is belief, and He was not saying that right is left or south is north. He was trying to make the point that we are not to question what God has revealed, we are to obey it.

This a clear instruction to obey what God has revealed through the Messenger, even if what was revealed makes no sense to us.

 

[samtonga43]

Prepare yourself for a long trip down the rabbit hole, with countless contradictions, denials and reversals of position.

Tb paints herself into a corner by forgetting (or pretending to forget) claims she has previously made. Actually, it’s worse than this; she often says she makes no claims. She thinks she understands logical reasoning; she obviously doesn’t.
When confronted by posts which shine a light on her idiosyncrasies, she either ignores them or responds to them with nonsense that no one, including herself, understands.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you did deny that Bahai teachings contain "a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality" Homophobia - Wikipedia
Now you accept that they do. Not only that, you happily admit that you agree with those homophobic passages - thus making you a homophobe yourself.
QED.

And you will probably now contradict yourself again.

I am not a homophobe because I do not have a dislike of or prejudice against gay people.

homophobia: dislike of or prejudice against gay people.
what is homophobia - Google Search

I also do not have a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality.
QED.

I agree with the Baha'i Laws regarding homosexuality, that is all.
How I think and feel about homosexuals is an entirely different matter.

 

[samtonga43]

But you spent 20 odd pages denying it!!
You really haven't a clue what's going on, poor thing.

Tb describes your post as 'optimistic', rather than friendly, funny, useful etc.
Is this a good sign? Has she seen the light?

 

[Vinayaka]

Yesterday (for me) i was answering about a question relating to baha'i scripture and homosexuality. And i replied something like "I can not tell other what they can and can not do in their belief/faith."

The person who made the question then directly assumed i had to be a homophobic, hateful person against every LGBTQ person.

I just wonder, how is it possible to conclude that a person is homophobic or hateful from a reply like the one i gave?

Just to clerify my true stand on it, i am neutral to what other people do in their relationship sexually, i is not any of my business to critique them.

I feel fortunate to be in a religion that not only allows, but encourages folks to think for themselves. Therefore, I can use my own wisdom and common sense to follow the science on such things, which is that homosexuality is a normal thing that happens naturally to a certain percentage of people. Sexuality, in general has nothing to do with the soul, or atman.

Sadly, some adherents of some religions have to rely on an archaic book for such decisions, and by the rules of that faith, and feel they have to adhere to its laws, however Draconian they might be.

From that, I can easily see why a person might conclude any member of certain religions to be homophobic.

 

[samtonga43]

Thank you for the full context. I saved the passages for future reference.

It is incumbent upon everyone to obey Him in whatsoever God hath ordained; and whosoever denieth Him hath disbelieved in God, in His verses, in His Messengers and in His Books. Were He to pronounce right to be wrong or denial to be belief, He speaketh the truth as bidden by God.

Rather is it incumbent upon everyone to firmly adhere to God’s straight Path. Were He to pronounce the right to be the left or the south to be the north, He speaketh the truth and there is no doubt of it. Verily He is to be praised in His acts and to be obeyed in His behests. ​

He was not saying that right is wrong or that denial is belief, and He was not saying that right is left or south is north. He was trying to make the point that we are not to question what God has revealed, we are to obey it.

This a clear instruction to obey what God has revealed through the Messenger, even if what was revealed makes no sense to us.

Right is left.
North is south.
Nonsense is truth. Yes, that sounds like MrB.

 

[dybmh]

I also do not have a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality.

You may not, but infallible messengers did.

I agree that the Baha'i Faith teaches that homosexuality is 'one' of the evil passions that need to be purged,

If someone supports the position described above. They are supporting homophobia per the Wikipedia definition.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tb describes your post as 'optimistic', rather than friendly, funny, useful etc.
Is this a good sign? Has she seen the light?

No, what he was optimistic about is that I ever denied anything.
I never denied the Baha'i teachings and Laws on homosexuality.

 

[Trailblazer]

You may not, but infallible messengers did.

True.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So here's the problem. I say that pederasty could be legal one day (sex with pubescent and willing minors) and many say. 'Can't ever happen, it's against the law.'

Sure, if a democratic government votes for it, it can be legal. Because the concept of law established by majority is followed only in democratic countries. I do not see any problem with it. Do you think any democratic government will do this?