Homosexuality and religious.

[CG Didymus]

Depends what you are seeking CG.

Mathew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye. shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh. findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened"

O SON OF BEING! Thou art My lamp and My light is in thee. Get thou from it thy radiance and seek none other than Me. For I have created thee rich and have bountifully shed My favor upon thee. — The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 11

O SON OF SPIRIT! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting. — The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 13

Regards Tony

Well, we were talking about cherry-picking verses and giving them a meaning that suits the Baha'i objective of showing that their prophets were prophesied in the Bible over 2000 years ago. Again, I'll use the example of Isaiah 7:14. The context makes this boy that was born of either a virgin or maybe just a young maiden a sign for King Ahaz. When the boy reached the age when he knew good from bad, whatever that was, the two enemy kings would be dead. The sign was fulfilled a few years later.

The one verse is made to be definitely about a virgin giving birth, the rest of the context ignored, which doesn't describe anything to do with Jesus, and that one verse becomes a prophecy that the Messiah will be born of a virgin? And again, Matthew's, Luke's and the Quran's version of the story all differ, not to mention all the non-canonical birth stories about Jesus.

Baha'is do need and use "fulfilled" prophecy as one of the things that legitimizes Baha'u'llah's claims. It's understandable that you, Bill Sears and other Baha'is will go searching the Bible and other Scriptures that will somehow fit into the Baha'i story. The "Glory of God" fits great. But it's a title he took. Something that could have easily been researched and found to fit into some NT and Bible verses. But does it fit the Scriptures of other religions? The "lamb" is very important in Revelation. But Baha'is have only guesses as to who the Lamb of God is. But maybe it's time to get back to the OP.

 

[CG Didymus]

No I do not have to accept that at all.

You can choose they are not relevant to you, but I will always see they are relevant to all humanity, even when they see they are not.

That was in response to this...

These laws are irrelevant to others. Do you accept that?

The laws, I see are the highest morality. True liberty is submission unto God's Laws.

No judge outside of the law, is worthy of judging the law.

Okay, the laws are from God. Let's go with that. What's going to happen when and if Baha'is ever become the majority? It is what Baha'is believe is destined to happen one day, isn't it? What are Baha'is going to do when it's time to pass a law about homosexuality? A law that forbids it and nullifies all gay marriages? A Baha'i would have to support that law, wouldn't they? And being in the majority, that law would pass. Then what? How will the Baha'is hope that the government, through the police and the courts, will enforce that law?

 

[Trailblazer]

I would agree with that, but don't think you do, which is why I think you mistyped. You probably meant atheists. And I wouldn't disagree with that either, because most atheists have trouble with this idea as well - making a distinction between the illusion of free will - having a desire and executing it without any feeling of being constrained to make that choice - and having an indeterministic will that actually could have chosen otherwise.

No, I meant theists, although atheists could have a problem with this concept as well.

I said: The most misunderstood aspect of free will among many theists is that we are completely free to choose whatever we want to choose, with no constraints on our choices.

Theists who think that we are completely free to choose whatever we want to choose, with no constraints on our choices, blame humans for what they choose if their choice runs contrary to what they believe humans should be able to do do, according to their scriptures. They see only black and white with the inability to see any other possibilities. Of course this is a fallacy.

 

[Brian2]

No, I meant theists, although atheists could have a problem with this concept as well.

I said: The most misunderstood aspect of free will among many theists is that we are completely free to choose whatever we want to choose, with no constraints on our choices.

Theists who think that we are completely free to choose whatever we want to choose, with no constraints on our choices, blame humans for what they choose if their choice runs contrary to what they believe humans should be able to do do, according to their scriptures. They see only black and white with the inability to see any other possibilities. Of course this is a fallacy.

The will is free to choose as opposed to humans being forced to act in a certain way.
But even when we do not want to act a certain way it does not mean we can necessarily stop ourselves and when we do want to act a certain way it does not mean we can necessarily act as we want to.

 

[samtonga43]

The will is free to choose as opposed to humans being forced to act in a certain way.
But even when we do not want to act a certain way it does not mean we can necessarily stop ourselves and when we do want to act a certain way it does not mean we can necessarily act as we want to.

The way I think of this is that freewill means that we are capable of choosing, while freedom of choice means that it is possible for us to choose.

 

[CG Didymus]

The laws, I see are the highest morality. True liberty is submission unto God's Laws.

Okay, the laws are from God. Let's go with that. What's going to happen when and if Baha'is ever become the majority? It is what Baha'is believe is destined to happen one day, isn't it? What are Baha'is going to do when it's time to pass a law about homosexuality? A law that forbids it and nullifies all gay marriages? A Baha'i would have to support that law, wouldn't they? And being in the majority, that law would pass. Then what? How will the Baha'is hope that the government, through the police and the courts, will enforce that law?

Any comments on this yet?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Any comments on this yet?

How can I make detailed comment on a future that we are yet to envisage?

Why do the Messengers not do just that CG? They know the future.

Yet, they leave it mostly up to us to create that future, based on our level of submission. All we require for that future, for 1000 years, is in that law and Word of God.

Obviously, as Messengers will always come, it appears we will not get it 100% right.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

How can I make detailed comment on a future that we are yet to envisage?

Why do the Messengers not do just that CG? They know the future.

Yet, they leave it mostly up to us to create that future, based on our level of submission. All we require for that future, for 1000 years, is in that law and Word of God.

Obviously, as Messengers will always come, it appears we will not get it 100% right.

Regards Tony

Lots of religion had "God-given" laws. How'd that work out? All I'm trying to point out is that if Baha'is do gain a majority, they could vote in people that would support Baha'i laws. One of those laws would be the forbidding of homosexuality. And if Baha'is did ever become a majority, why wouldn't they? But enough rope-a-dope, Baha'is would vote for a law forbidding homosexuality. And the government would then have the police and judges enforce that law. And isn't that what God and the Baha'is would want to happen?

Or... if Baha'is were the majority, they'd have a change of heart and not vote in a law the forbids homosexuality? And if the law got voted in and became law anyway, what would Baha'is do? Protest against such a law? I don't think so.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Lots of religion had "God-given" laws. How'd that work out? All I'm trying to point out is that if Baha'is do gain a majority, they could vote in people that would support Baha'i laws. One of those laws would be the forbidding of homosexuality. And if Baha'is did ever become a majority, why wouldn't they? But enough rope-a-dope, Baha'is would vote for a law forbidding homosexuality. And the government would then have the police and judges enforce that law. And isn't that what God and the Baha'is would want to happen?

Or... if Baha'is were the majority, they'd have a change of heart and not vote in a law the forbids homosexuality? And if the law got voted in and became law anyway, what would Baha'is do? Protest against such a law? I don't think so.

You are shaping the future in the mindset of the past CG. It does not work.

Humanity will change greatly, it will face great turmoil, to that there is no longer any doubt.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

You are shaping the future in the mindset of the past CG. It does not work.

Humanity will change greatly, it will face great turmoil, to that there is no longer any doubt.

Regards Tony

Okay, let's try this again... Turmoil happens. People all over the world realize the Baha'is had it right all along. The nations unite and put an end to war. The lessor peace is happening. More and more people join the Baha'i Faith until the majority of the people in the world are Baha'is. Even though there are still secular governments in most nations, most pattern themselves by the Baha'i model. And most start incorporating Baha'i laws into the laws of the nation. One of those laws, eventually, is going to be the law that forbids homosexuality. Baha'is are the majority. Why wouldn't they vote "yes" for this law? Since, for Baha'is, it is a law that was sent from God. But once in, and made the law of the land, then what? The secular government is going to have to enforce that law. Wouldn't that be exactly what God and the Baha'is wanted?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Okay, let's try this again... Turmoil happens. People all over the world realize the Baha'is had it right all along. The nations unite and put an end to war. The lessor peace is happening. More and more people join the Baha'i Faith until the majority of the people in the world are Baha'is. Even though there are still secular governments in most nations, most pattern themselves by the Baha'i model. And most start incorporating Baha'i laws into the laws of the nation. One of those laws, eventually, is going to be the law that forbids homosexuality. Baha'is are the majority. Why wouldn't they vote "yes" for this law? Since, for Baha'is, it is a law that was sent from God. But once in, and made the law of the land, then what? The secular government is going to have to enforce that law. Wouldn't that be exactly what God and the Baha'is wanted?

The message I tend to get is more: "When we set up the world government, hearts will somehow change, then God will, through appearing in people's hearts, "will" away a common and known thing like LGBT+, such that we won't have to lift a finger against our own biases."

Or your interpretation could be correct, too.

 

[Trailblazer]

Humanity will change greatly, it will face great turmoil, to that there is no longer any doubt.

Indeed, in the distant future there will be a New Race of Men

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are shaping the future in the mindset of the past CG. It does not work.

Humanity will change greatly, it will face great turmoil, to that there is no longer any doubt.

Regards Tony

Okay, let's try this again... Turmoil happens. People all over the world realize the Baha'is had it right all along. The nations unite and put an end to war. The lessor peace is happening. More and more people join the Baha'i Faith until the majority of the people in the world are Baha'is. Even though there are still secular governments in most nations, most pattern themselves by the Baha'i model. And most start incorporating Baha'i laws into the laws of the nation. One of those laws, eventually, is going to be the law that forbids homosexuality. Baha'is are the majority. Why wouldn't they vote "yes" for this law? Since, for Baha'is, it is a law that was sent from God. But once in, and made the law of the land, then what? The secular government is going to have to enforce that law. Wouldn't that be exactly what God and the Baha'is wanted?

I use the same reply CG, but will add a key component in the Baha'i Law is the protection of a minority.

It is up to Baha'i to practice the law and we can not speculate what others outside the faith may choose to implement into law.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The message I tend to get is more: "When we set up the world government, hearts will somehow change, then God will, through appearing in people's hearts, "will" away a common and known thing like LGBT+, such that we won't have to lift a finger against our own biases."

Or your interpretation could be correct, too.

The lesser peace is put in place by the nations of the world. The face of the earth will have changed dramatically when this unfolds.

Everyone will face change.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Wake up. Stop dreaming, wake up to realities.

Kherson, yesterday.

Live updates: Russia's war in Ukraine - A RainBow at Night

Indeed, in the distant future there will be a New Race of Men.

I completely agree, evolution.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Wake up. Stop dreaming, wake up to realities.

Yes indeed, humanity does indeed need to do that IMHO.

Regards Tony

 

[Ella S.]

This graphic is outdated. We are no longer considered a part of anthropoidea, instead we are a part of the haplorhini suborder and the simiiformes infraorder. We're no longer considered monkeys, but instead we are considered simians.

 

[Madmogwai]

The fact is most Religions straight out condemn Homosexuality in no uncertain terms.

I’m from a Religious perspective it doesn’t matter what we think, the Religions rules are clear.

If a Religion is against it which all are, don’t follow the Religion, worship God at home.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The fact is most Religions straight out condemn Homosexuality in no uncertain terms.

I’m from a Religious perspective it doesn’t matter what we think, the Religions rules are clear.

If a Religion is against it which all are, don’t follow the Religion, worship God at home.

Good to meet you, not sure if we crossed paths in another thread to date. I see you are from a Buddhist background.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The message I tend to get is more: "When we set up the world government, hearts will somehow change, then God will, through appearing in people's hearts, "will" away a common and known thing like LGBT+, such that we won't have to lift a finger against our own biases."

Or your interpretation could be correct, too.

If Baha'is ever rule the world, then their laws, supposedly God's laws, will be the law for all people the world over. And God has already "changed" the hearts of Baha'is. They know that homosexuality is forbidden. So, to do God's will, they would enforce that law. But along the way, if they ever become the majority, they can vote in representatives that will enforce the law forbidding homosexuality.

Who's going to vote against that law or be against the enforcement of that law that forbids homosexuality? Christians? Muslims? Baha'is? They've all had their hearts changed by the God they believe in, and many have committed themselves to obeying every law and command of that God. But is that God real? Do those laws of God forbidding certain sexual behaviors ever worked? Even among the believers? These types of laws are too easily man-made, and then attributed to a God that knows all and sees all. But, according to Baha'is, is unknowable and unseen. All we can know about this God is what their prophet has told us. Too convenient.