Homosexuality - Choice or Not?

[Buttercup]

Then peopel will have nowhere to run, they will have to stand up for themselves and say "This is the way i am and i chose this life"

but NOOOOO can't do that!

You base your opinions on your religious beliefs, correct? Homosexual sin to you is against God.

You know what? I'm willing to wager that even if science found undeniable, unchangeable genetic links concerning sexual orientation, many gays would still be atheist.

Are you thinking people want a way to be Christian and gay that's legit?

 

[Aqualung]

Then peopel will have nowhere to run, they will have to stand up for themselves and say "This is the way i am and i chose this life"

The second part of your sentence is correct - they chose this life (a life of homosexual sex, since that is an action). But the statement, "This is the way I am", you still have not made the distinction between who people are and how they act out who they are. For example - some gay people might act out their homosexuality by choosing to have raucous sex with every same sexed person they can find. Others might manifest it by choosing to look at porn designated for the opposite sex. Still others might manifest it by not doing anything, ignoring their feelings, ignoring who they are, and settling down with an opposite sexed person. But none of this changes "this is the way I am,", but rather "I chose this life".

 

[TurtleGirl]

First to address the original question: NO! Homosexuality, bisexuality and transgender are not choice, it's a matter of how one is born! Do you choose to be heterosexual? Do you actively decide "you know what? I think I will seek to have relationships and sex with the opposite gender only because that is what I have reasoned based on the evidence." I doubt it. My guess is at some point in your life, you looked at someone and the blood started flowing to all the naughty bits and, just like everyone else in this wacky and crazy world that has experienced arousal, you went all gooey and stupid and thought... "hehehe... me likey do the chacha."

I do have a problem with Marriage for Homosexual couples. Civil unions, sure, fine, go for it. but, it should be kept separate from marriage.

It's not the State's place to determine marriage is solely an institution of procreation any more than it has a place to determine marriage is an institution for certain religious convictions.

Perhaps the act of "marriage" (and I put it in quotes because the actual word is linked to the historical Anglo-Saxon, Judeo-Christian concept, not the broader global concept of loving mated pairs in an eternal partner bond) started as a religious practice, but now it is strictly a legal contractual agreement entered into by permit only and not sanctioned unless the gonvernment (not the church) gives the approval.

I have no problem with churches refusing to perform marriage ceremonies for same-sex couples. If it really is against their religious beliefs then who am I to remove their Constitutionally-protected freedom of religion? But the act of marriage as a legal bond between two loving partners is exactly that: a legal matter and not a religious matter. Therefore, as with all legal matters, it should be protected against discrimination and what you propse is discrimination. It relegates one class of people to be subordinate to another. Not only is that a gross violation of the U.S. Constitution, but here in my state it is also even more clearly a gross violation of my state Constitution. Maybe the churches can be allowed to say no, but under no stretch of the imagination does the government have any right or authority to say no to same-sex couples. That is nothing short of tyranny (which incidentally is also legal grounds for revolution in my state. Go stubborn and fiercely independent Yanks! )

And before we get into this whole debate of what is "traditional" for marriage, I would like to point out that many Native American nations were perfectly accepting of same-sex marriages and, despite their biology, transsexuals marrying the gender-appropriate spouse (meaning they may be biologically male but they identified as female and were not prohibited from marrying male partners and living as their wife). In some nations, it was even acceptable for a man to not only marry a woman but also to marry a transwoman because transwomen were esteemed in these cultures and were a huge help to the women when the men were away.

 

[Sunstone]

If everyone believed it was a choice we could stop wasting money on useless research...

Remember kids! IF you don't like the evidence, just call it "useless research"! You'll be glad you did!

 

[doppelganger]

Being self-righteous, judgmental and xenophobic - Choice or Not?

 

[madhatter85]

I wish i could stay and debate thsi but i will have to put the rest of my replys onhold untill i get off work, it just got busy.

I will rebuke do not worry.

 

[Buttercup]

I will rebuke do not worry.

I hope you meant rebut. :cover:

 

[Sunstone]

I wish i could stay and debate thsi but i will have to put the rest of my replys onhold untill i get off work, it just got busy.

I will rebuke do not worry.

OK. It's been a good debate, and thanks for being so pleasant! Frubals!

 

[Sunstone]

Being self-righteous, judgmental and xenophobic - Choice or Not?

Well, if it was a choice, we'd all choose to be self-righteous, judgmental and xenophobic, wouldn't we? I mean, where's the fun in the alternative?

 

[Katzpur]

I'll answer for him...

Well, somebody might as well.

Even if it's not biological, there seems to be little a child can do on his/her own.

I agree. I am undecided as to whether sexual preference is strictly genetic in nature and is determined prior to birth or whether there are certain factors in one's very early life that may contribute to his or her ending up homosexual. I've just never heard any straight person tell me how he decided to be straight, and I don't expect MH is going to do that either. Choosing one's behavior is another matter. I didn't choose to be heterosexual, but I did choose to abstain from having sex until after I was married. I chose that part of who I am, but I had no say whatsoever with respect to who I was attracted to. And I don't believe MH did either.

 

[Smoke]

Then peopel will have nowhere to run, they will have to stand up for themselves and say "This is the way i am and i chose this life"

I can say that now. I definitely did not choose to be gay. I definitely did choose to be sexually active, and I chose to be in a committed relationship.

As a matter of fact, though, it's rarely LGBTs who raise the question of whether sexual orientation or gender identity is a choice. All competent and unbiased professionals agree that neither is a choice; only those with an axe to grind because of their religious beliefs disagree. Religious bigots are always raising the question of choice, because they think if we chose our orientation/identity, that means the law should discriminate against us. That's absurd.

Whether I chose to be gay or not -- and I repeat, I did not -- shouldn't make the slightest bit of difference regarding my equality under the law, including the right to marriage. Even if they were to prove that sexual orientation and/or gender identity were a choice, it should no more lead to fewer civil rights than choosing to be a Mormon should.

 

[Bishka]

i know a few gay people and they know that it is thier choice to be how they are. why would there be anguish if it was normal? why so much drama?

It's thier choice to be who they want to be and the gay peopel i know, know it and accept it. one of them was my old boss when i worked at Lowes.

It's their choice to go through that anguish? :no:

:sorry1: Try again.

 

[madhatter85]

Yes, they did choose to go through all of this "drama" because they chose to be gay.

 

[madhatter85]

You base your opinions on your religious beliefs, correct? Homosexual sin to you is against God.

You know what? I'm willing to wager that even if science found undeniable, unchangeable genetic links concerning sexual orientation, many gays would still be atheist.

Are you thinking people want a way to be Christian and gay that's legit?

Wrong, this is not a religious debate, this is merely a matter of choice, if i wanted it to be part of religion i would have put it in the other forum.

I wonder why is it that most gay peopel are athiest? i have answers myself but i wont post them here, this is a debate foum that is saparate fromt he religion side.

 

[Bishka]

Yes, they did choose to go through all of this "drama" because they chose to be gay.

Your opinion.

They choose to go through hell? No one choose to go through hell like that. You would not even begin to understand because of your close-mindedness.

 

[madhatter85]

Simon Levay (biological scientist) says,

Although there are significant differences between the attitudes of lesbians and gay men it is clear that both groups are far more inclined to consider their sexual orientation a biological given than is the general population....Should we take these assertions seriously? Not entirely, of course. No one even remembers being born, let alone being born gay or straight. When a gay man, for example, says he was born gay he generally means that he felt different from other boys at the earliest age he can remember. Sometimes the difference involved sexual feelings, but more commonly it involved some kind of gender nonconformist or sex atypical traits-disliking rough and tumble play for example, that were not explicitly sexual. These differences, which have been verified in a number of ways suggest that sexual orientation is influenced by factors operating very early in life, but these factors could still consist of environmental factors such as parental treatment in the early postnatal period.

LeVay, Queer Science, 6.

You got so many varying opinions on this that when it comes down to the scientific method, there isn't anything conclusive. I know the APA has quite a few articles on it, but also speaks of it from more of a psychological perspective.

very Good write up.

speaking on that, IT's stilla choice on how people cope with certain things growing up. You choose to ignore it, you choose to do anything about it.

the Stimuli was not your choice, how you reacted, was your choice.

and you're very right, nobody can remember BEING born. so how can you say that you were born gay?

Matter of the fact, it still comes down to making a choice,

problem with psychoanalasys on this subject is that it's already in the past. the past can be distorted, lostm forgotten, remembered incorrectyly, not in chronological order. you would have to watch every kid being born and growing up without any stimuli to see if any of theme were actually "Born gay" but that is much to difficult and improbable to do a study like that.

fact is plain and simple, you choose to be who you are.

 

[madhatter85]

Your opinion.

They choose to go through hell? No one choose to go through hell like that. You would not even begin to understand because of your close-mindedness.

by the way there's plenty of people who enjoy the attention and drama and choose to do things that cause it for themselves.

They chose to "come out fo the closet" or however you want to put it, they chose to be gay, they chose to be attactied towards members of the same sex.

 

[madhatter85]

I can say that now. I definitely did not choose to be gay. I definitely did choose to be sexually active, and I chose to be in a committed relationship.

As a matter of fact, though, it's rarely LGBTs who raise the question of whether sexual orientation or gender identity is a choice. All competent and unbiased professionals agree that neither is a choice; only those with an axe to grind because of their religious beliefs disagree. Religious bigots are always raising the question of choice, because they think if we chose our orientation/identity, that means the law should discriminate against us. That's absurd.

Whether I chose to be gay or not -- and I repeat, I did not -- shouldn't make the slightest bit of difference regarding my equality under the law, including the right to marriage. Even if they were to prove that sexual orientation and/or gender identity were a choice, it should no more lead to fewer civil rights than choosing to be a Mormon should.

I'm leaving Religious aspects out of this, i don;t know why you guys keep bringing up this point.

you say you "didn't choose this", i sense remorse? why would you feel remorseful?

please... you chose to be gay, you chose to act on your urges, you chose not to be attracted to people of the opposite sex.
You cannot tell me that you were never ever attracted to a member of the opposite sex in full honesty.

 

[Bishka]

They chose to "come out fo the closet" or however you want to put it, they chose to be gay, they chose to be attactied towards members of the same sex.

Again, you've never experienced it or loved someone (platonically) that has been/is/gone through it. I would next expect you understand or even have compassion about this subject. You so-called authority on this subject means nil to me and just about everyone else that has participated in this forum. You clearly do not understand them or what they go through.

 

[Bishka]

You cannot tell me that you were never ever attracted to a member of the opposite sex in full honesty.

Actually, many of them can. You aren't in their heads, so you cannot chalk this up to your victory. Only they know how they feel, and you obviously have not a clue...again.