Well, the problem being that your co-religionist jerks ARE trying to force everyone to live by YOUR standards. To use your analogy, your co-religionists are trying to require lawyers, economists, football players and construction workers to pass the same exams as doctors by legislating that everyone must be a doctor, even if their job is to pour concrete.
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Homosexuality & Religion
- Thread starter Meow Mix
- Start date
Well, the problem being that your co-religionist jerks ARE trying to force everyone to live by YOUR standards. To use your analogy, your co-religionists are trying to require lawyers, economists, football players and construction workers to pass the same exams as doctors by legislating that everyone must be a doctor, even if their job is to pour concrete.
Smoke
Done here.
Yeah, but she wasn't talking about God preventing homosexuality. (You'll find that Rene usually says exactly what she means.)
The fact is, Paul seems to take a dim view of homosexuality, as he does of Cretans and philosophers, too. But female homosexuality is not prohibited anywhere in the Bible, and passages dealing with male homosexuality are at least open to interpretation. Meanwhile, Jesus and the writers of the New Testament took the time to make a number of explicit prohibitions that most Christians don't pay a bit of attention to: no divorce and remarriage, no refusing to give money to somebody who asks you, no praying in public, no wearing gold, and no braiding your hair, for instance. These modern-day Christians who act like homosexuality a great sin, and even the greatest sin, didn't get that view from the New Testament. And probably not from the Old, either.
Smoke
Done here.
In all fairness to Pegg, Jehovah's Witnesses aren't supposed to get involved in politics, and I've never known one who did. I mean, I'll argue with her here, because that's what we do here. But I don't really care what they believe as long as they're not trying to shove it down my throat.
But the passage says that God did this because of the people's actions. In the way you're interpreting it, it would effectively read "because of this, God did what he always does." How does the "because" make any sense in your re-jigging?
Ah, did not realize that about JW's. Modify the "co-religionists" to include "christians that are NOT JW's" in your heads please.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Yes, he does. He does not prohibit lesbianism. This is a very simple point, which I would think would matter to you, but does not. Apparently you don't care in the least what God allows or doesn't allow; you're going to insist your own prejudice is God's word anyway. What's the term for that?
IT'S NOT PROHIBITED. There is no prohibition. It's allowed. No rule against it. Kosher. Permissible. Fine. God has no problem with it. O.K. in God's book. Skippy with Jehovah.
Therefore, what does any of the rest of it matter?
As I said before, if you think it's prohibited, just produce the Thou Shalt Not. You can't because IT'S NOT THERE. It doesn't exist. There is no such prohibition.
Why is it that this doesn't matter at all to you? What religion did you say you were?
linwood
Well-Known Member
You seem to be avoiding my question Pegg.
On what standard do you seperate gods laws into moral and ceremonial?
What gives you the authority when Christ himself has clearly stated you are incorrect in doing so.?
Maybe this translation would suit you better.
Also I`d advise anyone debating Biblical scripture with Pegg to compare your argument to the corresponding verse in the link below.
Otherwise she really has no reason to care.
Some core Christian concepts are translated entirely differently in JW Theology compared to common Christianity.
It makes a difference
The New World Translation
On what standard do you seperate gods laws into moral and ceremonial?
What gives you the authority when Christ himself has clearly stated you are incorrect in doing so.?
Maybe this translation would suit you better.
Also I`d advise anyone debating Biblical scripture with Pegg to compare your argument to the corresponding verse in the link below.
Otherwise she really has no reason to care.
Some core Christian concepts are translated entirely differently in JW Theology compared to common Christianity.
It makes a difference
The New World Translation
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
Do you have any clue what religious freedom is? That means I can take an interest in any religion I want; for whatever reason I want. Pick out only the parts I want, while disregarding what I don't like and you don't get any say in the matter. I can also say whatever I want about whatever religion I want. You don't own religion and I can stick my nose into any religion I want to. That is the nature of freedom of religion.
If I am in your house or your personal church, messing with your way of life, then I am out of life. But in societal issues, things which impact us all and in public debates; I'll say whatever I please about your religion, and I'll get involved as much I want to. Homosexuals have every right to be involved with religion.
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
Moral approval? For what?!? Homosexuality is not a question of morality; it is just nature being nature.
Listen, I don't have a problem with being gay and it certainty is not a moral dilemma for me. In fact it is quite natural to me and I simply do not see anything wrong with it. So why would I need moral approval for something that is quite obviously not a moral issues?
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Not directed at you Auto but at the general audience in the context of your post...
In general you and I probably agree... but for the rest of the people....
If god is a dude why would he prohibit girls loving girls? Wait... If god is sexless...
Is god sexless?
Doesnt god have to be? I mean if hes a guy then there has to be a girl god otherwise why is god a guy?
If god is a girl then there has to be a guy god right?
Are you saying there can be two girl gods or two guy gods?
Ahh alpha and omega....
Ok sure but if alpha and omega are both girls where did little alpha and omega come from?
Artificial insemination? From who?
Its worse if both gods are male... your artificially placed an egg you got from where and how did that work exactly?
This is an odd argument...
How did the silly concept of a god even get brought up? Ahh:
Detestable? Deserving intense dislike? From who?
And that says nothing against women who lie with women.
If god has a sex then how would he be god...
How is this answer more satisfying then the big bang? To anyone?
You look up and pray then go out and beat gay people to death and kill children that back talk and say praise jesus?
This argument is silly in that you are repeating an argument men who lived long ago wrote down on paper under the premise that it was not men but gods the men were representing. When pressed these people repeating ancient arguments end up not even understanding the argument but fall back on god said it therefore X, Y and Z... Have more pride.
There is nothing wrong with homosexuality or bi-sexuality. Get over it and if your god thinks that it is wrong he needs to come down to earth and rewrite a few books. (Maybe you can help him)
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The bible always wants to kill people... you have to take it with a grain of salt. Most people say homosexuality among men is an obama nation.
(abomination) With women they seem unsure but noticeably uncomfortable.Remember when god told lot's wife not to look back... and she did... and he said what?!?!? he was really mad. He up and turned her to a pillar of a salt. Then lots daughters got their dad all drunk and were trying to seduce him cause they thought the whole world was gonna end... what did god do then? Not salt pillars...
People over react... Looking back when god says not too will get you turned to salt... cohorting with your sister to get your dad drunk and in the sack is acceptable or did I read that chapter wrong?
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
Well, I don't see it in this copy, but I remember reading that before though. I wonder what the direct translation says.
It makes me curious, I know that from time to time holy scriptures do change. I had a theory that eventually holy scripture will change when it gets to far behind modern morality. It just takes time; I wonder if this is proof of that. Or maybe just proof of my fuzzy memory.
It makes me curious, I know that from time to time holy scriptures do change. I had a theory that eventually holy scripture will change when it gets to far behind modern morality. It just takes time; I wonder if this is proof of that. Or maybe just proof of my fuzzy memory.
Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
According to Wikipedia this is the direct translation:
"Do not lie with a male as one would with a woman."
Leviticus 18 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Do not lie with a male as one would with a woman."
Leviticus 18 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
lesbianism would be included as an act of fornication. The Greek word translated fornication is por‧nei′a. Its a general term given to all unlawful sexual practices. It would include adultery, bestiality, pedophilia, masturbation...anything which is a sexual act performed either alone or with another person or animal.
Considering lesbians perform sexual acts together, it is an act of fornication which is spoken of as a sin by Jesus.
Mark 7:21 "for from inside, out of the heart of men, injurious reasonings issue forth: fornications, thieveries, murders, 22 adulteries....23 All these wicked things issue forth from within"
and the Jerusalem congregation also spoke of fornication as something christians must avoid
Acts 15:3 "Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood."
Paul mentioned fornications as a work of the flesh and gave this counsel to christians
Galatians 5:19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit Gods kingdom"
MW0082
Jesus 4 Profit.... =)~
Yeah but your scriptures are fallacies obviously......
But it obviously wouldn't have been intended to cover any practice not known to the author at the time that the book was written.
I seriously don't believe that the Bible authors even considered the idea of a loving, long-term relationship between two equal partners of the same sex. The only forms of same-sex sexual activity they would've been familiar with would've been pederasty, temple prostitution and other practices that are nothing like the sort of same-sex relationships that are under discussion now.
I think it's ridiculous to suggest that a text can condemn a behaviour that the author never even conceived.
JustAsking
Educational Use Only
I'm not sure I buy that line of thinking. Homosexuals are found in other species as well as our own. I'd submit it's not new and can probably be traced all the way back to the origins of life (at least on this planet).
I would agree that in times past it was probably something not admitted as often (or at all outside of the underground circles). But to say it didn't exist or wasn't known to exist, I think that's a stretch into the improbable.
The one question I really wanted answered still sort of hasn't been answered.
What's God's beef with homosexuality -- or with oral sex or masturbation for that matter?
What's the big deal? Someone said it's because that's not what our no-no goodies were "designed" for, but we do things with our bodies that they weren't designed for all the time. I also don't get how people say sex is only procreative and everything else is lust but that we should "enjoy" sex -- that's contradictory.
Our eyes weren't designed for staring at computer screens; are we being sinful?
Our bodies weren't designed for leaping out of airplanes, are skydivers being sinful?
I already brought up the example of spitting up mucous when sick to clear our throats, something saliva wasn't designed for, is that sinful?
What is the REASON for God's condemnation of something so petty?
What's God's beef with homosexuality -- or with oral sex or masturbation for that matter?
What's the big deal? Someone said it's because that's not what our no-no goodies were "designed" for, but we do things with our bodies that they weren't designed for all the time. I also don't get how people say sex is only procreative and everything else is lust but that we should "enjoy" sex -- that's contradictory.
Our eyes weren't designed for staring at computer screens; are we being sinful?
Our bodies weren't designed for leaping out of airplanes, are skydivers being sinful?
I already brought up the example of spitting up mucous when sick to clear our throats, something saliva wasn't designed for, is that sinful?
What is the REASON for God's condemnation of something so petty?
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Which if you think about it, is quite ambiguous. Is it ok to lie with a male in a different way than with a woman? I hear from the Hebrew experts that it's even less clear in the Hebrew, where the actual words read something like "man not lie man like woman bed" or something. (don't remember exactly) and they're trying to puzzle out exactly what it means. Just goes to show what a lousy basis it is for making moral decisions.
This may seem odd, but makes more sense when you put it in the context of the purity codes it comes from, that prohibit many odd things. The whole idea is to distinguish Hebrews from other peoples, by prohibiting them from doing what people around them did. It makes a lot of rules about menstruating women, for example. So it may be saying that when you have sex with a man, don't do it in the same place as when you have sex with a woman! We just don't know.